In this episode of Talking Animal Law, we're joined by Dr. Angus Nurse, Professor of Law and Environmental Justice at Anglia Ruskin University and a core member of A-Law's Wildlife Law Working Group. Dr. Nurse takes us on a journey through his career, from his early days as an investigator to becoming a leading voice in green criminology. We dive into his groundbreaking research, including the "System Set to Fail" report and his book, Cleaning Up Greenwash, to uncover why our current legal systems often fall short in protecting animals and the environment. This episode explores the crucial links between animal welfare and the criminal justice system, offering a new perspective on how we can create a more just world for animals.
0:08 - 1:19 — Introduction: Introducing Dr. Angus Nurse, his work at Anglia Ruskin University, and his role with the UK Centre for Animal Law (A-Law).
1:20 - 4:24 — Investigative Roots: Dr. Nurse reflects on his career as an investigator for the Local Government Ombudsman and how it shaped his interest in law and justice. He discusses the recurring nature of problems and the disconnect between what the law says and how it is applied.
4:25 - 6:02 — Policy and Animals: The conversation touches on how new legislation, such as the planning and infrastructure bill, can have negative consequences for wildlife and that human benefit often takes priority over animal welfare.
6:03 - 7:27 — Dogs and Human Responsibility: Dr. Nurse addresses the complexities of responsible dog ownership and dangerous dogs, arguing that many dog attacks are preventable and are rooted in human-centered issues.
7:28 - 10:50 — Beyond Punishment: Dr. Nurse delves into the "investigative mind" and the limitations of a justice system focused solely on punishment, arguing that a retributive approach fails to achieve justice for animal victims.
10:51 - 12:46 — Corporate Crime: Discussion of corporate environmental crime and why traditional penalties like fines are often ineffective against major corporations.
12:47 - 18:37 — The "System Set to Fail" Report: Dr. Nurse explains why animal victims don't receive the same resources as human victims, highlighting systemic issues like resource allocation, rural policing, and lack of training for courts and lawyers.
18:38 - 22:34 — Transforming Justice for Animals: Dr. Nurse reflects on his changing perspective, from believing the system "broadly works" to becoming less confident in its effectiveness and the need for radical rethinking. He discusses how the law can be better constructed to consider the "victimization of the animal".
22:35 - 26:27 — Unpacking "Greenwash": An explanation of why corporate environmental crime is an "inevitable consequence of capitalism" and how companies use greenwashing to hide harmful practices.
26:28 - 30:22 — Public Awareness and Newsworthiness: The conversation explores why some animal and environmental issues, such as cat torture or elephant ivory, receive media attention, while others, like low-level habitat destruction, go unnoticed.
30:23 - 37:44 — Research Methods & Obstacles: Dr. Nurse details the empirical methods used in his research, including questionnaires and interviews, to understand the barriers to effective wildlife crime prosecution.
37:45 - 42:20 — Notifiable Offenses: He explains the crucial need to make wildlife crimes "notifiable offenses," which would require police to record them and help address the problem of patchy data collection.
42:21 - 45:39 — Elevating Animal Crimes: Dr. Nurse shares his belief that making crimes notifiable elevates their status and signals that they are a policing priority. He gives an example of the challenge of obtaining data on dog attacks due to inconsistent recording.
45:40 - 48:45 — Recommended Resources & Actionable Advice: Dr. Nurse recommends books like Stephen Wise's Rattling the Cage and Joan Schaffner's Introduction to Animals and the Law. His advice to listeners: "Don't give up," as incremental change takes time.
48:46 - 49:22 — Outro & Contact Information: Dr. Nurse shares where listeners can find his work and connect with him online.
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