Siri Chilazi is a senior researcher at the Women in Public Policy Program at Harvard Kennedy School, and co-author of "Make Work Fair: Data-Driven Design for Real Results." She helps organizations bridge the gap between research and practice using evidence-based approaches to workplace fairness. In this episode, Siri explains why workplace fairness requires redesigning systems rather than changing people, demonstrating how structured processes like predetermined interview questions produce less biased results than open-ended conversations. She argues that organizations must analyze workforce data to reveal bias patterns in hiring, feedback quality, and career advancement, treating fairness metrics with the same rigor as financial data in business decisions. Siri presents evidence from studies showing that traditional diversity training fails to change actual behavior despite positive participant feedback. She recommends structural alternatives like specific performance evaluation prompts, automated feedback reminders, and technology tools that flag biased language in assessments. She advocates for opt-out promotion systems that automatically evaluate eligible employees rather than requiring them to self-advocate, sharing how this approach increased women and people of color's advancement rates. Siri outlines her three-part framework: "Make it Count" through data tracking, "Make it Stick" via small process tweaks, and "Make it Normal" by shaping workplace culture through individual actions and standards. Siri addresses resistance management by framing fairness discussions around business results rather than ideology, explaining how even skeptical leaders find evidence-based approaches make practical sense for organizational success. In this episode, you’ll discover practical, evidence-based strategies for creating fairer workplaces through smart system design rather than individual behavior change. You can find episode 479 on YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Key Takeaways [03:21] Siri reveals it's much faster, easier, often cheaper, and more effective to change surrounding environments rather than individual brains. [04:59] Siri describes a more effective approach involving asking all candidates the same set of questions in the same order and assessing answers comparatively. [07:07] Siri confirms fairness was chosen intentionally because research shows it's a universally shared human value globally that fairness resonates with leaders because it's impossible to spot talent accurately without it. [09:52] Siri clarifies data can be a powerful engine for change only if actively harnessed and analyzed to reveal insights. [13:48] Siri outlines how organizations should ask whether employees get feedback of the same length and spend different amounts of time at given ranks before promotion. [16:15] Siri explains bias tends to creep into potential assessments because they're more subjective with less formal data. [17:39] Siri confirms more than half a century's worth of studies showing diversity training basically doesn't shift people's behavior making performance evaluation prompts more specific and close-ended as a more effective approach. [23:30] Siri describes opt-out systems where everyone meeting certain criteria gets automatically evaluated for promotion versus opt-in systems. [27:31] Siri explains how an Australian employer reduced the gender gap by telling rejected candidates they were in the top 20% of applicants. [30:16] Siri outlines her three-part framework: make it count, make it stick, and make it normal. [32:54] Siri identifies the biggest resistance that occurs when changes touch leaders' own everyday work directly. [34:01] Siri explains her core aspiration is to shift discussions about fairness from ideology and emotion to data and evidence. [39:44] Siri invites everyone to think of one thing in their daily work they could tweak slightly to make it more fair. [41:04] And remember…“Though force can protect in an emergency, only justice, fairness, consideration and cooperation can finally lead men to the dawn of eternal peace.” - Dwight D. Eisenhower Quotable Quotes "Our behaviors are often shaped by the environments that surround us, right? The physical environments, but also the policies, the processes, the norms, the stereotypes, the culture, so to speak. And those external forces shape us to a much greater degree than we realize." "If we want to shift behaviors, it's much faster, easier, often cheaper, and most importantly, much more effective to change that surrounding environment, those systems and processes, rather than to try to change our individual brains." "There's a lot of research that shows that fairness is a universally shared human value globally. Right. People gravitate to fairness. Kids as young as 4 and 5 years old develop a really sophisticated understanding of fairness." "It's actually impossible without fairness to spot talent accurately, to truly hire the best people, and then to evaluate those people objectively so that we make sure that we're advancing and promoting the best, most competent people rather than the ones who, for example, appear most confident on the surface." "Data can be a powerful engine for change, but only if we harness it as such, only if we actively make the data speak." "People often subjectively love the trainings. They'll give it an 11 out of 10 on the score form and they'll report that, oh yes, I learned all these new things I didn't know before. I'm much more motivated now to make sure that I don't evaluate people in a biased way. But then when we follow up with them and see what they actually do in six months, in 12 months, in two years, we just don't see evidence of behavior change." "We often confuse confidence with competence. So just because someone's pounding the table, applying for everything, saying, me, me, I'm ready, give me a raise, promote me, put me on this, that doesn't mean that they're actually the most skilled or competent person for that task." "I really think if. If we make sure we create a culture where people matter, they're appreciated, and that they belong. And again, what surrounds that is fairness. Of course. And again, you know, the whole idea is, you know, you're working toward results. You know, you grow your people, you grow the company." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Siri Chilazi Website | Siri Chilazi LinkedIn | Siri Chilazi Instagram |
