Nick McGowan (00:01.446)
Hello and welcome to the mindset and self mastery show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. And today on the show we have James Madison. James, how are doing

James Madison (00:11.498)
I’m good, Nick, glad to be here. Thank you for the invite.

Nick McGowan (00:13.691)
I’m excited for you to be here. Okay, I’d mentioned a little bit before we hit record, we get messages throughout the days basically of people that are trying to be on the show and I’m not trying to boast or anything like that, but we like to do our own research to be able to figure out, this a good fit? Is it not a good fit? What can we talk about? What are the topics? Even if somebody gives us topics, we’ll typically go, that’s cool. Let’s look and see what you’re about. I am excited for us to be able to talk about purpose. Obviously as co -founder of Choose Your Calling, helping people actually

figure out what their purpose is. That’s a big proponent of what we talk about here on the show. And I wanna get into the depths of it because it’s not just like I’d mentioned literally before we hit record. It’s not about just like, well, Steve Jobs did this incredible thing. So my purpose must be that size. It can look differently than that. But hey, why don’t you start us off? Tell us what you do for a living. And what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre.

James Madison (01:01.536)
Totally.

James Madison (01:08.714)
Yeah, thank you. My name is James Madison and my company is called On Purpose Life. And I really help people, especially leaders, learn how to live what I call life more in purpose, on purpose. Really about being in purpose, like their own purpose, on purpose with intention, right? To create their wildest dreams or do whatever they want. And one of the simplest things I can say that I do is help people really get clear on who they are.

and understand what they bring, the value and the impact they have, and then get out of their way. Because I find with mindset, as you know, that’s the biggest limiting factor for most people and just helping them get out of the way is what I do. I’d say, you know, I speak, I teach, I coach, I’m always doing things. And one of the things people don’t know about me is that

procrastinate. I’m the guy that’s up at four o ‘clock in the morning on the day of the presentation, you know, finishing it, not usually starting, but finishing it off. And I’ve learned I’ve learned to understand that, you know, that procrastination is a form of wisdom. Because I don’t I don’t get what I call the final downloads till things until it gets close that pressure and the real so usually when I do something it’s it’s got all the relevant information that I’ve received like right up to the moment. And I kind of like that rush a little bit.

Nick McGowan (02:25.58)
I was going to ask if you like the rush because if you can, if you can be aware that you have to get a download, that’s one thing I would feel like you’d be like, all right, well, if the download happens within an hour of this thing, can the download happen within 12 hours of this thing? But if you’re like, give me, give me it. That’s pretty cool. It’s interesting when you think about procrastination, because that can be one of the things that’s like, um, there are several layers to all

James Madison (02:45.428)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (02:54.646)
no matter what it is that we look at. Somebody might listen to this and go, cool, me being lazy and procrastinating is totally fine. Dude said so. That’s not exactly what he’s saying. So dive a little bit deeper into

James Madison (03:04.992)
That’s right. Yeah, what I learned, because it is not lazy. It’s this I learned recently. It’s about this desire for instant gratification. And if it’s two weeks out, there isn’t any real reason to do the thing, right? But as it gets closer and it starts to become real, that’s when my genius kicks in because it’s real.

whatever I’m going to do or produce is actually going to have an outcome that I can see. And it really comes down to more of that instant gratification. One time I was doing a talk in May and they wanted to see my slides in March. I said, are you kidding me? don’t even really get close. Within the week I start thinking about it, but it really is the last 48 hours that the download happens. And so I’ve learned to just really embrace that and it’s worked well for

Nick McGowan (03:40.528)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (03:51.205)
Hmm. I’m sure there are some people that were on the other side of that, that were like, come on, man. Like we talked to, yeah, we talked about the Enneagram a little bit before. I don’t want to call out any numbers, but some of those people between four and seven may, may have been like, give me the damn thing. but that’s cool that you know that about yourself and that you can actually do that. Have you, have

James Madison (03:56.788)
Sweating bullets.

James Madison (04:07.316)
Yes, that’s right. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (04:16.993)
honed that in over the course of time or is that something that you really kind of understood even as a kid in

James Madison (04:24.306)
If I look back, I can see it. don’t think I really understood or embrace what was going on and use it as a superpower until I got in the coaching these last few years. You know, working in corporate, it was deadlines and timelines and things like that that drove that sense of urgency. Once I got away from that, it was me. And I think that’s when I could really kind of see how that showed up for me. Embrace it. And now I just I build it into my plan. I know that I’m going to go on a walk. The download is going to happen. I’m going to bring the last few pieces together.

and it’s going to be amazing whatever I do.

Nick McGowan (04:55.397)
Where do you think that download comes

James Madison (04:58.76)
Yeah, for me, honestly, I know that everything I get, everything I have comes from God. Like that, that’s where my faith lies. So when, like I said, I go on the walk and I don’t think about the thing, but just things start dropping in, things start dropping in that I would not have known, would not have known were necessary. Then I do the thing. And those were the most impactful things, not the things I planned weeks ahead. So that’s when I learned I’m really the vessel, right? I’m

I’m not driving, I’m the vessel for communication of that message. And I just trust that, that it’s much bigger than me.

Nick McGowan (05:32.107)
And that right there, we could probably just take the rest of the episode and talk about that. Thinking about being able to trust and have that trust within ourselves. I’m, actually actively reading through, I always butcher her name, but it’s Ianola Van Zandt, her book about trust. And it is such a difficult thing, especially everybody has some sort of trauma. No matter what, there’s something that’s happened too quick, too much all at once that was traumatic to

James Madison (05:36.734)
Yeah. Yeah.

James Madison (05:47.506)
And then, yeah. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (06:01.708)
And for us to, we break from the trust at times. So for you to get to a point where you’re like, I can trust that this stuff’s going to happen. That could be really scary for some people. If it’s like, I’ve got this big thing to talk about next week, but I know that I just have to trust myself to be able to do it. Are there daily disciplines or things that you go through to really, I guess, strengthen that muscle of being able to trust yourself?

James Madison (06:06.613)
Yes.

James Madison (06:10.484)
Yes.

James Madison (06:26.142)
Yeah, it’s just become a practice of when I feel the edge to not do it and to really put myself in it, it’s just to kind of catch myself in that tension or stress. Usually I’ll feel it in my stomach like an adjita feeling, right? It’s that little feeling and I know, okay.

If I’m feeling that now I’m making it about me and it’s not about me. So release that and allow whatever’s coming to me to come to me. And one of the things I’ve done to help confirm that is when I’ve spoken somewhere or coached or done something, people will say to me, Hey, that was a great job, great job. And I’ll say, what did you take away? I really don’t want to hear about what I did because I don’t know what you took away and I’ll ask people and they’ll tell me what they got. And then I go, that’s the thing that came actually in the moment when I was speaking that was never planned.

And so that’s what I know. I really am the vessel and just need to be aware of those cues in the moment because I don’t know what people need. know what I have to share, but there’s a much bigger picture of what people need to

Nick McGowan (07:23.35)
And what a beautiful thing, especially being able to understand that you will most often, especially how you operate, saying you’ll most often have those things that just come out. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things of it. Hell, even with the podcast, I’d mentioned to you, like we have these two bookends, the rest of this, we’re just riffing apart jazz. That’s all this is because there’s beautiful things that come out of it. Where if everything’s just scheduled and planned along the way, you don’t actually allow for that, but it can be scary for people to go through

James Madison (07:34.442)
Yes.

James Madison (07:51.264)
That’s right. Yes.

Nick McGowan (07:52.981)
I don’t wanna keep going down this path, because I know there’s more stuff that we can get into. Why don’t we take a little bit of a step back? Tell us how you got to where you’re at and give us some context to

James Madison (07:56.724)
Sure.

James Madison (08:01.952)
Yeah, so I spent 25 years in the corporate world in manufacturing consumer products, working with Colgate, Palmolive and and Hinkle Consumer Goods, always in operations, always in leadership roles. And leadership was something that I love teams to this day. And I love leading teams and helping teams evolve. after about 25 years, I decided to pivot out of the corporate world and do my own thing. And I got into executive recruiting, actually decided I wanted to be an executive recruiter after talking to a coach.

went to my Saturday morning Zumba class three days later and I met a lady who was an executive coach. And seven days later I went to work with her. So it was one of those things I was like, wow. So when you get clear on your gifts and what you want to do and then you actually put that out there, the things that are meant for you when you understand your purpose actually find you. And that’s what happened to me. I could tell you a hundred more stories like that so far, but that was the beginning. Like, okay.

So when you get clear in who you are, what you bring, and the value and the impact, and you just start to walk in that, all the things you’re meant to do just start to show up in your life and you recognize them. And so that was the beginning of me kind of getting on this path.

Nick McGowan (09:11.961)
And it can be a weird thing for people. You know, I talked to different people about where they’re at in their purpose journey, uh, where they think they’re at, where they want to be, where they would like to get to. And it goes back to, think that trust is a big portion of that. Where if you can trust, like this is what feels right for me. Uh, I often think about the people that are in the spot where they’re like, look, I’ve done this thing for 20 years or 30 years. And like, I’m damn good at it, but it doesn’t feel

there’s something off. And even if you’re just a small percentage off, like being able to fix that small percentage or adjust that small percentage can change it for you. So what does that look like when you work with people that are in that spot where they’re like, look, man, I’ve been doing this thing for so long and it feels kind of right, but

James Madison (09:41.792)
That’s right.

James Madison (10:00.446)
Yeah, you know, it’s funny. I work with people typically that are very senior leaders. They’re very successful. They’re all good at what they do and they’re all stressed the hell out, right? They’ve they’ve sacrificed so much of themselves to get that success. And yet the same time they’re not fulfilled. It’s like in the first part of their life, it was chasing success, having the money, having the things, having the family and they get to a point and go, is this it right? They start to seek significance over success.

Nick McGowan (10:09.944)
Yeah.

James Madison (10:29.572)
And I was playing around with the book title of something I’m working on. And the title would go something like this. Your success is killing you. This idea of success, but dying on the inside when it comes to physical health, mental health, relationships, marriages, even thinking about the legacy that one is leaving for their own children of how they’re teaching them what’s important based on sacrificing so much for success.

Nick McGowan (10:56.834)
Yeah. So that always, whenever we get in anything like that on this show or any conversation I have, even if somebody had a freaking grocery store or something, I can’t help but not think about systems in play and how we were told that this is what you should do in life. You should go to school and then you go to another school that you pay a bunch of money for to get a piece of paper that tells you you can go get a job now. And then that job can let you go whenever they want. But if not, you stay there.

James Madison (11:09.63)
Yes.

James Madison (11:13.962)
That’s right.

Nick McGowan (11:23.672)
You’ll retire off 40 % of what you couldn’t really live off of anyway. So good luck. But that’s a systems problem, you know, where people go through and figure that out. But I think it also couples along with a winning strategy. Are you familiar with the book, The Last Word on Power? So Tracy Goss wrote this book that has literally just fucked my brain. And it’s been kind of an eruption in a sense to understand that we create a strategy for winning.

James Madison (11:28.768)
That’s right. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (11:53.579)
We have these core woundings that say, well, for me, I don’t want to be unloved and I don’t want to be abandoned. So I’ll be the best damn thing that’s ever happened to something or somebody or some organization. And we create this strategy that then allows us to get to a point where you can’t actually get any further. Your success is killing you, like you’re saying. So what do you talk about and how do you work with people when they’re trying to figure that stuff out? What does that look

James Madison (12:10.794)
That’s right.

James Madison (12:19.296)
Yeah, it’s funny you said that I use a statistic that says that 80 % of the programming that we get for life that creates the patterns of our life. We get 80 % of it by the time we’re eight years old. Scary, especially in today’s world, right? So imagine if you have 80 % of the programming, which is about beliefs about the world and yourself and the big one. I call a lying belief and my lying belief that I used to have was I’m not good enough.

And most people’s lying belief is I’m not good enough, I’m not lovable, I’m not worthy, I’m not fill in the blank, right? It isn’t that somebody ever told them that, it’s that based on circumstances and programming, they said that about themselves. For me, what that did is cause me to go into what I call prove energy my life. I’m going to prove that I am good enough. That caused me to

take on assignments, I always saw give me more as a reward because I get to prove that I’m good enough. The reality was I wasn’t proving to them, I was proving to myself. And because it’s an inside job, no amount of work was ever gonna change that perception. It was all inside. And what ended up happening to me is I would take on so many assignments and get overwhelmed and burnt out. And then when I would fail at things, guess what I just now proved? I’m not good

Nick McGowan (13:36.382)
Hm. Mm -hm.

James Madison (13:37.712)
So it becomes this. So what’s really not about the actions, it was the lying belief about myself. And so when I work with clients, if we just put in place solutions and strategies without getting to that lying belief and really root it out, all they do is keep generating the same kind of results and more stress and more worry. So I really help people get into understanding.

What is the truth about themselves? Replace that lie with the truth and create from that place instead of the wounded place like you mentioned.

Nick McGowan (14:07.626)
Yeah, I love that. It’s, it’s removing just the intellectual side. I think of even myself, I spent years and years and years just intellectualizing things, reading books, watching Ted talks, listening to podcasts, doing all these things and just knowing it, but not actually deeply understanding and feeling it and then doing process work through it to be able to get it out of your cells and to be able to work through that

James Madison (14:32.106)
That’s right. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (14:33.905)
And so were there any crazy times or situations that happened throughout life, like some pivotal moments that you can look back at and go, that was one of those moments that really changed everything for

James Madison (14:44.32)
Yeah, you know, it’s funny. was thinking about that when I was in the, I was in the army and I was an army brat and I also served in the military and everything we did from ROTC in college to preparation was in the army was planning preparation. And I love that stuff. Practicing, getting ready. I played a lot of sports, you know, you play how you practice. Then I’m in Southwest Asia sitting in Saudi Arabia in 1990, 1991, and the whole game changed everything that we prepare for.

things that we understood were gonna happen was different. And that’s when I recognized, wow, it isn’t just about the planning and preparation. It’s about being able to adapt and overcome in the moment. And again, think about me, adaptability is one of my strengths and recognizing that I like to enjoy being in the moment and kind of going with the flow of what’s going on and choosing my path. I think that’s when I realized it, the plan goes out the window as soon as you start.

The result is gonna be about how you pivot and execute in the moment and stay present. It’s what I call knowing the flow and then choosing my go, right? Not just going with the flow and floating, but kind of seeing what’s going on and then picking the path. And that to me has been the key to everything I’ve ever

Nick McGowan (15:59.594)
It’s easier said than done. Obviously, you know, when crazy things happen or some situation happens, that’s where a character can show up. And that’s where how we actually want to be shows up. Maybe it’s not specifically the want that we want. Like, you know, if somebody says, well, so and so or something happened and there was a gun to your head, you’d be like, I would knock the gun out of somebody’s hand. I would flip them over. I would do this. I would do

James Madison (16:02.815)
Yes.

James Madison (16:23.794)
Hahaha

Nick McGowan (16:25.948)
In all reality, you might just shit yourself and cry in the corner. You don’t know. But being able to actually prep for that sort of stuff, mentally prep, spiritually prep and be able to work through it. Are there sort of pieces that you’ve put together that have worked for you and the way that your energy

James Madison (16:30.122)
That’s right.

James Madison (16:43.252)
Yeah, if I think about even the career that I had, it was always in operations. There was always people, process, products, things moving, things happening. At the end of every eight hours, I could measure the safety, the quality, the reliability of what we produce. So I think about that instant gratification thing of mine. love, a little bit sadomasochist sometimes operation is, cause it’s crazy, it’s nuts, things are down, but like I thrived on that because I could see.

Nick McGowan (17:03.614)
Ha ha

James Madison (17:10.826)
tangible results every eight hours. And I think that’s why I enjoyed that type of career. And I developed this term over, under, through, and around. Like when there’s an obstacle, there is no ability to say no or be stopped. We’re going to go over, under, through, or around that obstacle. And I just thrived on that kind of thinking with my teams. Like we can do everything. There’s nothing that’s impossible.

And each challenge just offers us an opportunity to stretch us in an area.

Nick McGowan (17:42.09)
Hmm. When I think about challenges and I think about those situations that happen when we feel not just like an irritant, like somebody sent you a dumb email or something happened, but there’s an actual challenge. It can be easier again said than done to be able to go over under around or through what have you. But that, literally just points out that there’s so many different ways to go about things. Like I think about even business, there’s so many different ways to make money. There are so many different ways to work with

In our own personal work, there are so many different ways for us to heal and figuring out the thing that really works and aligns for us. So if we take a little bit of a step back and you work with different types of people, how do you figure that out to be able to figure out what’s the best fit to be able to help

James Madison (18:18.794)
Absolutely.

James Madison (18:26.868)
Yeah, you know what’s interesting? Here’s a key distinction I find that works for them is the distinction between stress and pressure. A lot of times people think they’re the same thing, but I like to define stress as like it’s the round peg square hole. This can’t work like something has to actually change in order to be successful where pressure says.

I just need to step up and do everything I’ve already know how to do with all of my gifts and my talents. That’s the answer. It’s something within my capability. And if I can see more of those situations as pressure, then I just need to stand up and take the free throw. Where stress, something’s got to change, something different needs to happen, maybe out of my control. And when people recognize, that’s pressure, that’s a good thing. It brings us

It brings the best out of us versus stress us out, like we like to say. And so what I love to do is help people recognize what are their unique gifts, their unique passions, their talents, so they have a real clear picture of what they bring to every situation and recognize when those can be used. That’s the key in those situations.

Nick McGowan (19:30.324)
Sure. Yeah, and especially having that perspective of that to be able to look at it and go, huh, okay, well, this word means this to me, this is how I operate with it. I at times will think about if somebody were to say to you, hey, there’s a bear in the other room, I want you to go in that room. The initial thought is like, you can go fuck yourself. I’m not going to go in that. There’s a bear in there. But if you open the door, and it’s a stupid teddy bear, you got to turn around, Vicky, kidding me, but that perspective of being able to understand this is what it looks

James Madison (19:49.394)
Right.

Nick McGowan (19:59.197)
Now there are people that don’t want to ever handle pressure or stress or anything of the like. And there are certain people that need it, that they like crave it. And I do think some of that comes from trauma and from different experiences that happened where they can jump into a control mode. So how do you work with people to understand that they’re not just like, just give me all the stress and all the chaos and all the pressure to then be able to just perpetuate the nonsense that they still have going on inside of

James Madison (20:09.054)
Yes, yes.

James Madison (20:17.844)
Yes.

James Madison (20:24.692)
Yes.

James Madison (20:28.98)
Yeah, what I find when it’s overextended, it’s they’re out of alignment. They’re out of alignment with who they are and what they bring. And they’re just now on pure grit, pure grind, pure hustle. Like those are the words that the most stressed out leaders that I talk to talk about. And they’re really good at it. And it stresses them out. And they’re dying inside. And they’ve sacrificed. And here’s a guarantee. Every one of them has at least two glasses of wine or two cocktails every night.

Right. And I believe that’s because they only count the first one and the last one, but it’s this, I can do it. And then it drains me so much that I have to try to find some other vice to unwind to get back in the game the next day. That’s where the success is good, but the inside is dying. When I can get someone aligned with who they are and know their gifts and what I call more flow than hustle, right? Then they get the same level of results, but they have more satisfaction, more joy.

They empower people around them, they create different environments and more gets done because they’re aligned in who they are, not trying to be something that they’re just good at.

Nick McGowan (21:34.724)
Overall hustle culture. What, what a thing that is really screwed with us. And when I think about it, talk about the instinct ratification, being able to see social media and how people talk about the things. And like, you literally see the tip of the iceberg. Even though there are people that have cameras following them around, you’re still seeing a curated version of their life. They’re not showing you, you know, I went into the bathroom and like, I looked like a total mess or whatever. Like they’re showing you a curated version of

James Madison (21:37.332)
Yes.

James Madison (21:54.624)
That’s

Nick McGowan (22:04.432)
being able to know that that hustle culture was literally just trying to push things through, it can be really difficult to step outside of that, especially if people are so used to it. So how do you break them of that or at least help them break themselves

James Madison (22:05.024)
That’s right.

James Madison (22:18.432)
That’s right.

James Madison (22:22.09)
First of all, they have to be aware that there’s a problem, right? So I remember working with one of my favorite clients, very successful financially, has all the stuff, the family and everything, but just stressed out. So the first sign he went to his doctor and his doctor said, you’d be better off eating McDonald’s every day for your heart than the stress you’re under. Ding, ding, ding, ding, physical stress, right? Then there was mental stress, couldn’t sleep, couldn’t take his mind off of work, right? Again, making lots of money, doing the thing, then.

started to have marital issues because he’s not present, then not being present for his kids. And then this was, and so we went down the list of all the costs of doing this job. And we listed like 20 things that he wasn’t aware of. And the last one I said to him, what are you teaching your son who’s going to go off to college next year about what life is all about? And that’s when it hit him like, Oh my gosh, I’m teaching him to do all these things for a paycheck, even if it’s a big one.

And that’s just gonna continue to be the legacy that I create. And that’s when it hit him and we did some work on him inside. He got out of that particular place, went to another company that’s a little crazy, right? But it’s exactly what he was built for, right? It wasn’t that it was easier. It’s exactly what he was built for to do the impossible. And now he’s thriving once

Nick McGowan (23:37.489)
I think that’s a key component to this. You’ve mentioned about alignment, being out of alignment, doing things that are for you and right for you. And us understanding that as people that if something feels off, that’s telling you something, just like our emotions. They’re not here for us to just go, well, this is what I need to follow. It’s just an alert system. And some of us feel those a little bit more than maybe others. Again, we can get into the Enneagram side. I grew up with a bunch of eights around

James Madison (23:50.784)
That’s right.

James Madison (23:56.787)
It is.

Yes.

Nick McGowan (24:04.689)
And as a four, I’m like, why don’t you guys feel these things? I don’t understand what’s going on. They’re like, fucking think about it. Um, but for us to understand how we are out of alignment, sometimes we’ll come from that thing saying this doesn’t feel right. Or I don’t think this is right for me and us being able to actually go through it. But even with that guy that you were just talking about, or that person you were talking about, their kid is potentially 17, 18 years old. What he was taught.

James Madison (24:09.608)
Right.

Nick McGowan (24:32.049)
was about 10 years ago when it really started to sink in. And I think that’s a core thing for us to go back to. The developmental age between four and roughly, roughly four to eight is when that all happens. And we figure out this is how life should look from this point on. And then we just start to keep adding and adding and adding and adding to it. So in the work that you do, do you go back and help people see those things and process through the experiences they’ve had?

James Madison (25:00.49)
Yeah, you know what’s funny? I always make the distinguish between coaching and like therapy. Therapy goes deep, deep, deep way back and kind of brings you up to today and coaching takes you from today to the future and what you want to create. And at the same time, we do go back to understand where those patterns and beliefs were formed, right? There’s usually any motion today that can go be traced back to an early memory.

which creates a meaning about myself. I’m not good enough. And then we put a mechanism in place, like I’m going to work really hard and sacrifice. That becomes the thing. And it’s what you said that served me really well until it didn’t. The thing that got me here won’t get me there. And it becomes a limit at some point. And that’s where I love to help people take that limit on by really getting inside and reconciling who they actually are, what energizes them and what drains them, not just what they’re good

Nick McGowan (25:35.514)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (25:52.226)
Yeah, let’s take a moment to see the people that are listening to this. Look, we get it. We get you. You’re probably stupidly frustrated right now because we’ve been there where you’re like, well, this thing won’t get me any further, but damn it, it’s got me this far. So why the fuck won’t you get me any further? It’s like, this is as far as we take you. But it can be easy to just keep driving in that where you’re like, well, it got me this far, so it must get me further. And one of the things

James Madison (26:02.719)
Yeah?

James Madison (26:08.606)
Yes. That’s right.

Nick McGowan (26:20.536)
I don’t think about regret in the sense of like, well, at the end of the life, you’re going to think, I should have done all these things and that. Then I don’t think of it as a shame factor of like, if you regret, you will, you will have to live a certain way, but to be able to actually look at that and go, well, I keep driving this direction and I keep not getting any further. Sometimes it can be difficult to go, well, how do I make that change? I’ve been doing this thing for so long. What do I do that differently?

James Madison (26:45.962)
That’s right. And it brings me to a point. The person I don’t work with is the person that’s addicted to the cortisol of stress. a cortisol is a hormone, right? And people can get addicted and therefore they create situations. They are the firefighters that tear the thing down, set it on fire so they can solve it. That’s not the person I work with. I work with the person that can do that, but isn’t satisfied or fulfilled and wants to create greater significance, but is stuck, doesn’t know how.

Nick McGowan (26:52.951)
Yeah.

James Madison (27:14.804)
That’s where I come in to help them take those layers off so they can really create the freedom that they want to create things. So that’s a distinction. If you’re just the person that likes to burn and churn and churn, that’s not my person.

Nick McGowan (27:26.446)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there’s help for those people may not be with us. Yeah. But there’s like understanding that there’s a reason why they do that. There’s a reason why they look for that. I’ve had experiences with myself with that. And I’m like, why do, why do I argue with people at times? Like over the course of life? And I’m like, well, that’s what I was taught as a younger kid. This is what life looks like. if you, if you get upset, you yell and you throw

James Madison (27:30.26)
Yeah, it’s not me.

James Madison (27:37.214)
Yeah, that’s

James Madison (27:50.592)
That’s right. That’s it.

Nick McGowan (27:55.439)
That’s how this works. It’s like, it doesn’t. That’s not how it should work. But you hit on, think one of the core components of all of this self -awareness. Look at this point, I’m 130 some odd episodes into the podcast and being able to look back and have patterns that I see. One of the biggest things I point this out to everybody I talk to it’s the self -awareness. Like if you’re not aware of a thing, how the fuck can you do anything about a thing that you don’t know is there? But if you feel slightly off.

James Madison (27:56.18)
That’s Models. That’s

James Madison (28:05.439)
Yes.

James Madison (28:17.588)
Yes.

Nick McGowan (28:25.379)
That’s again the alert system being able to tell you there’s something there. So those people, and I’m sure you have discovery calls or some sort of intro call where you can be like, you are straight up an arsonist. How do you discern to be able to help those people, even if they’re just like, look, I’m close. I don’t really want to burn everything down, but I don’t know what else to

James Madison (28:33.504)
True.

James Madison (28:46.068)
Yeah, usually I get into talking about like, what’s the vision? Like, what do you want to see happen for you personally, professionally, you down the road? What are the obstacles you see today? What’s the impact if you do nothing? What’s the impact when you overcome that? I really test for what is it they want? Because if in that they’re happy where they are or content, then that’s probably not my person. But the person that wants the thing, but feels stuck, feels burnt out, feels overwhelmed and doesn’t know the path. That’s my person.

Right, I can help them. You talked about a lot of things that go on that are unconscious. They’re on autopilot. We’re not aware of them, right? A large percentage. There’s an expression that says, until we make the unconscious conscious, it will rule our life and we will just call it fate. It is what it is, right? And if the person I’m talking to is okay with that, that’s probably not my person, but the person that goes,

I have ulcers, have migraines, have things, everybody knows physically, like the cars that have the lane warning assist kind of thing. The body is speaking to you and telling you it’s out of alignment. And the person I talked to, a guy recently said, I feel like I’m in a pressure cooker. I feel like everything is just, that’s what, that’s the cue that that’s my person. I said, it sounds like a ball of spaghetti and we’re going to unravel that and help you get into alignment. And here’s what’s going to happen. You’re going to, you’re going to flow more than hustle.

just by being who you are, as simple as that. Not easy, but simple. And they go, that’s impossible. And then we talk about what that looks like. And the cool part is once we start to deconstruct some of those beliefs and they line up in who they are and they start to attract things in their life, I’ll get these calls like, James, you’ll never believe what happened. And I go, yeah, I totally believe it, tell me. And it’s exactly that, it’s the things, they start showing

Nick McGowan (30:29.805)
Hmm

Nick McGowan (30:35.916)
Yeah, isn’t it wild how for the most part, there’s always outliers, but for the most part, most people are pretty damn close. Like if you really start to unpack some of those things, unravel some of those things, I think of like the chaos behind most people’s TVs and entertainment centers with the spaghetti. You you start to actually undo that. You’re like, well, we don’t need this. I don’t know what the fuck this is for. What’s this attached to? But being able to actually go through and look at that, that

James Madison (30:59.466)
That’s right.

Nick McGowan (31:03.949)
Sometimes take longer than the actual fixing, let’s say of your problems because you’re so damn close. I think a lot of us are just slightly off, but if you’re slightly off and you’re a few percentage points off and you go 10 more years down the road, you’re going to be even further off. And again, that’s not a shaming thing. That’s not just shame. It’s like, it’s a real thing there. So talk to us about

James Madison (31:28.478)
Yeah, you know what’s interesting what I find? Because again, my ideal client, I stare in the mirror every day. It’s me. So that’s how I know how to find them because I know that was me, right? And it was saying yes to every good thing. Saying yes to all the spaghetti of all the cords like you’re saying, that sounds good. That sounds good. And we know that good is the enemy of great. And my coach told me a couple of years ago, she said, you need to start saying no to good things so you have room for the great things to show up.

Nick McGowan (31:34.263)
Mm -hmm.

James Madison (31:57.748)
And that’s what I find with high achieving leaders is if it’s good, I mean, it’s not bad. So you should do it. We’re taught do good, but that’s not the same as great. And so being able to really recognize how the, how the highest and best use of their gifts and talents come in, those great things involves them saying no to good things. My coach said, saying yes to almost every opportunity is what got you here today. Saying no to almost every opportunity is what’s going to get you where you want to go in the future.

And that’s based on knowing your unique wiring of what you’re here to do. That’s why I love to get into purpose because then people can say, yeah, swipe left, that’s not me. Swipe right, that’s me. And then they start to see things move forward.

Nick McGowan (32:40.503)
Sure. so many times a lot of people can be really hesitant to say no about something or think that they even have to keep going further than that. No is just a full sentence. And if you feel a no inside of you and you don’t listen to that, at some point it’s gonna come up again. You’re gonna have to learn that lesson. I still have that stuff that happens. There’s something that even happened months ago within business where I was like, this feels like a no. My partner said it was a no, but we still did it. And it was totally no.

James Madison (32:50.016)
That’s right. Full send.

Nick McGowan (33:09.748)
And there are different situations that happen where the more that you can see that you can feel it. And I think we can understand like, this is a no because there’s something greater. And oftentimes it’s like literally right around the

James Madison (33:23.304)
One of the things I like to say to people when making this decision is when you are presented with an opportunity If it is not a full body full body hell, yes, it’s automatically a hell no There are no hell maybes. You don’t need to consider figure out could you do it if it’s not full body? Hell, yes, just consider it. Hell no that takes that’s hard for people because it’s like well I could do that. I’ve done that before yeah, but that’s not who you are and what you what you were designed to do full body Hell yes teaching them what that looks

And then that’s when the most amazing things show

Nick McGowan (33:55.787)
Hmm, I fully subscribed to that, but my steak roll runs my life. Like if I, even when it comes to like dinner, there are times where we’re like tacos, burritos, sushi, yes. Like that’s the thing. But I don’t know if that’s always for everybody because the heady people, the people that are always thinking about things, they still need to have that, but maybe that’s a bit more of a verbal sort of thing. Have you experienced some of that with your clients?

James Madison (34:22.782)
Yeah, yeah, most of them, they struggle with that because they can rationalize anything. And here’s the problem. When you’re really good at doing something, even though it’s killing you, it’s hard to let go of it because you think a lot of my clients, they make good money, they have great careers, and they think if I can just endure another X number of years, then I can start to enjoy life. Well, life’s not guaranteed and you may not. You may have more money than health or time left when you get there.

Nick McGowan (34:26.485)
Sure.

James Madison (34:50.068)
The way to take a cash advance on your joy is to really align in the decisions today and start saying no to more things.

Nick McGowan (34:57.419)
Absolutely. So along that line, what’s that piece of advice you’d give to somebody that’s on their path towards self

James Madison (35:04.5)
Yeah, the number one thing I like to say is self mastery and creating the life you want is an inside job. It does not matter what the factors are around you, the environments, the politics, your bank account, your doctor’s report. It is always an inside job. So when you see a situation, instead of asking how that situation is affecting me, go inside and understand what is it about me that I’m allowing that situation to take me off a course of what I’m doing? If you, a person can really

always go inside. like to say that when we point our fingers, there’s three fingers pointing right back at us. Three to one. So if we can really take every situation and say, what is it about me that’s allowing for that? What is it about me that’s attracting that? What is it? What is it about me that actually enjoys that? And if we can, if we can get to the unlocking that belief inside, that takes the lid off all the things that we were meant to create.

Nick McGowan (35:59.698)
A great way to put that. And it has been so awesome talking with you today. I appreciate you being on. Before I let you go, James, where can people find you and where can they connect with

James Madison (36:09.15)
Yeah, you can get me with a couple of places. I’m on LinkedIn at James F Madison on LinkedIn. My website is on purpose dash life dot com and you can reach me there and I’d love to hear more if anybody has any questions.

Nick McGowan (36:23.994)
Again, it has been awesome talking with you. I appreciate you being on today. Thank

James Madison (36:28.618)
Thanks, Nick.