'Imposter syndrome' affects a huge number of men (and a sizeable number of men). In this episode, Tracy explains just what imposter syndrome is, and speaks with Gill Donnell MBE of 'Successful Women In Business' and author of 'The A-Z Of Banishing The Imposter Syndrome' about her own experiences and how she guides women into confidence in their careers and lives.
Download Gill's A-Z here: https://bit.ly/Impostor21
Tracy Kimberg is a highly experienced counsellor and hypnotherapist and offers a free initial consultation. She can be contacted at www.tracykimberg.com
[00:00:00] So waves of clarity, episode 11. My name is Tracy Kimberg. I am a counseling hypnotherapist, and I live in the UK down South in Dorchester. In all my years of experience, I have often had to deal with people that have feelings that they don't belong or that they are undeserving of the success or the life that they live.
Have you ever felt like you don't belong? Have you ever felt like your friends or colleagues are going to discover you're a fruit and that you don't actually deserve your job and accomplishments? If so you're in good company because these feelings are known [00:01:00] as imposter syndrome or what psychologists often call imposter phenomenon.
It is estimated that 70% of people experience these imposter feelings at some point in their lives. According to a review article that I read when I was doing my research, imposter syndrome affects all kinds of people from all parts of life, women, men, children, medical students. Marketing managers, actors and executives.
Before I introduce my guest, let's just clarify what imposter syndrome is. Exactly. Imposter syndrome is the idea that you've only succeeded due to luck and not because of your talent or your qualifications or your hard work. It was first identified in 1978. By [00:02:00] Pauline Rose clients and Susanne Em's in they paper.
They thought that women were uniquely affected by imposter syndrome. But since then, research has shown that both men and women experience imposter feelings. So let me introduce my guests to you. Her name is Joel Donal. Joel is an award winning business mentor. She is the owner of the successful women in business network.
She's an author, a speaker, and she also has her own podcast. I met Joel over a year ago, and I soon realized that Joel is extremely passionate about imposter syndrome. Jill will tell you what got her so interested. In this phenomenon, imposter syndrome.
Thank you again. And, um, let's start [00:03:00] off by just introducing yourself and telling people more about who you are and we, how you came about. Sitting in front of this computer today talking about imposter syndrome. Wow. Well, first of all, Tracy, thank you so much for having you having me on your podcast. I'm really excited about this.
Um, yeah, that's a bit of a long story. So I'll try and do a potted version for you, as you say. I am the founder of the successful women in business network, which I set up just over four years ago now. Um, as a consequence of me doing a lot of work around personal development, Um, my, one of my greatest passions I suppose, is seeing women achieve their full potential.
Uh, and I focus particularly on women. That's not because I'm anti man. I'm just really, really pro women. And that came about because of, uh, my previous career. Uh, I spent 30 years in the police service. Um, and that might seem a little bit strange to be talking about policing and imposter syndrome. [00:04:00] But my story really is that, um, I had a, it was great, great career, great job.
I loved every minute of it. Um, but I became a senior leader, uh, in the latter half of my career. And I found myself, those are the words I would use found myself. Uh, and I'm talking about the late nineties, early two thousands. Um, one of very few women at a senior level, thankfully it's much different these days.
There are. Numerous women in senior positions, even the metropolitan police commissioner across the deck is obviously is a woman. Um, but I, uh, found myself on a course. And it was the very first leadership course for women in the place. Up until that point, every course I'd been on actually been great fun because I was usually the only girl you're always the girl in the place.
So it would be me or one other woman, uh, and a load of blokes. Cause it was very male dominated and that was quite good. Fun. I could drink with the best of them. Um, so I enjoyed [00:05:00] courses, but this course was, as I say, the very first targeted just at women run by a woman, uh, and for female leaders. And I suppose that's my light bulb moment.
You know, a lot of us talk about having the light bulb moments in their lives, careers or whatever it is. And that was most definitely mine because I found myself surrounded by, uh, the most amazing women. And for the first time, I suppose sought about the imposter syndrome because my thoughts were. Oh my God, what am I doing here with all these amazing women?
Most of my career had been in CID. Um, and in actual fact, in my force, I was the very first female detective inspector. So at a sort of middle rank, um, and I've done quite a few firsts, which I didn't really think about. I was, I'm an only child. I was brought up to think that you can do anything that you want to do.
And I wouldn't say that the imposter syndrome. Sort of came to me through my early career, but suddenly I found myself with all these amazing women. [00:06:00] I'm definitely thinking, I don't know what I'm doing here. And then Tracy would the thing that just really opened my eyes and, and astonished me with these women that I was looking up to putting on pedestals, working in much bigger forces than I was in doing the most amazing jobs that are higher level than I was.
And all of them had feelings of doubt. Um, and we were telling stories and, you know, really talented, capable, strong women were. In tears about particular circumstances that they were finding themselves in a, I'm not saying it was full of tears, but it was just something that really woke me up to for the first time being a woman in the organization I worked in and the senior woman, uh, and it was after that, that I, I went back to my job and looked around and.
It seems really strange in hindsight to say it, but I realized that there were so few women in the department I worked in at my level and I said to an [00:07:00] amazing boss, I had where all the women, and he said to me, I've been waiting for you to stop that. And it was at that point in the late nineties that we started, we started up a female network.
Um, I. Uh, went on to the executive committee of a national organization for women. And we started a huge amount of positive action initiatives for women to encourage women, to take promotion and apply for different departments. Cause somebody loads of talented women in the organization, they just weren't putting themselves forward.
I suppose that's one of the key things for me, particularly in the work that I do now with women is that there are the most amazing, talented women all over the place. We know that, but so many of them wait until they think they're perfect before they apply for the next job, or might even set up a business or do something different.
We, and I include myself in that thing. We have to be perfect a lot of the time. [00:08:00] And if somebody let's talk about, you know, career in an organization, if there's a job that they can see, and it has five requirements in my experience, very often, women will wait till they've got at least four and a half before they apply.
Yes. The bloke's certainly an organization I worked in would have to have those qualities and they would be applying because they had a, I don't know whether you'd call it greater self-esteem, but they certainly put themselves forward. They weren't waiting until they're perfect. Some of them were going to blackouts and the women were being left behind.
And that wasn't because the organization was, uh, you know, institutionally sexist, do anything like that. It's because they weren't putting themselves forward. There are lots of glass ceilings. Yeah. There's lots of glass cases, lots of glass. I think there are barriers to women, but one of the biggest ones is what goes on in our heads.
And I think we hold ourselves back, which is why I developed the interest that I have in, you know, as you say, the imposter syndrome. No, that [00:09:00] was discovered, I suppose, in the late seventies. Yes. You know, um, Joel, I know that you specifically are passionate about helping women, um, you know, move forward and start their own businesses and reach a level of self-confidence to do so.
But our rate statistics this morning, like I said earlier, it says that, um, 66% are females and 56% of men. Actually have imposter syndrome, which is almost 50, 50. Yeah, absolutely. I know we, lots of men come back into the organization. I was talking about when we started talking more about this, my boss, you know, the very senior man would say to me, I felt like that.
He said I'm just much better at hiding it. And I try really hard not to let it impact me. So yes it's. Although when it was discovered by the two women that first wrote about it in America, they, they discovered it, uh, or spotted it identified it in women, in [00:10:00] senior academics, uh, in a university. So it's an academic setting and there was some very, uh, capable tons of women with, you know, all the credentials and all the qualifications to their name, but they considered themselves to be a fraud.
So, I guess that's the bit about why we talk about women so much, cause the original, you know, talking about it and identification of it as a syndrome, uh, came about when studying women, but you're absolutely right. It does affect men as well as women, I think often. And I'm, you know, stereotyping to some degree or generalizing really.
Um, I think men are probably better at hiding it and maybe don't let it stop. Stop them putting themselves forward. Yes. So, um, what, um, what do you think the answer is? What are the three things that we can do to fight imposter syndrome? Well, there's all sorts of things that we can do. And if I could make a plug for my guide to banishing the imposter syndrome, I'd donate is that, so I can think of 26 things, but I [00:11:00] suppose there's a few things, I think particularly if we talk about women, That are important.
Um, I used to run, um, personal development programs, swimming before I set up the network that we're a part of. And one of the things that always raised a bit of a laugh, but was very, very true was when talking about women accepting compliments, because what we have to do is increase our confidence to, to battle this syndrome and.
SIM something as simple as accepting compliments gracefully rather than pushing them back is one very simple thing. The amount of time. And I go out of my way, you know, I'm the strange woman in the toilet sort of say to a complete stranger. I love your dress. It's amazing. And it's lovely when people goes, Oh, you can tell him, thank you so much.
But there's also a significant number that will go, Oh no, no, this old thing. And we'll play it down. And for me, I think that's very like giving somebody back a gift. So if I gave you a gift, you're not going to give it [00:12:00] back to me. Are you, you're going to say thank you. It's the same thing. If somebody compliments us.
We need to be able to appreciate and say, thank you. And that helps build confidence. One of the other things I was doing a talk recently talking to women in business is, um, is that keeping, keeping our confidence going by making sure you can always look at, reflect on the positives about you. Because if you're in business, you're there for a reason.
If you're in a senior position, you're there because people have believed in you. And usually, particularly those of us in business, we've got testimonials, we've got reviews, just really nice emails that people have sent to us. And I have a box I should have got it off my shelf. Ready. I call it my blues box.
So if I've had a bad day, bad days, I think outside box and in there are, and there's a lot in there cause I've kept them for years. Thank you cards. Now testimonials reviews, all those sorts of things that I can just lift it up, have a [00:13:00] read. And it reminds me of what people think of me. And you can't fly in the face of what other people tell you.
Uh, and I suppose one of the other things I think is, I mean, being aware of it is probably the first step. Is is, is a key to so many different aspects of mental health, isn't it? Yes. So acknowledging being aware, that's definitely the first, first step towards it. Um, I mean, I was talking to somebody of the day doing a bit of mentoring with her and, you know, saying a band, you all really amazing here, all these testimonials, you're just fabulous.
You know, you have to own that. You have to tell people how it goes, especially if you're in sales or you're trying to promote your business. And, and I think for women, there's still a lot of conditioning around, you know, I was brought up with, if girls should be seen and not heard. Oh, no, [00:14:00] I'm of a different generation of money, but I think there's still an expectation even through the major of how women should be fav.
And just because you are going to become confident in yourself and be able to talk positively about yourself and your business and your career, because you need to do that. If you're going to sell yourself into a promotion, into, you know, you want to push your business plan and get a loan, you've got to own your success.
It doesn't mean you're going to turn into these, somebody off the apprentice. You know, so many women think that if they start talking like that, people are going to think that arrogant and that's a bad thing. We have to be able to, to own our success. We have to, you know, my thoughts around celebrating successes, reflecting on what we've achieved.
As women we're often juggling so many different things, you know, we've achieved a goal. That was great. And then we move on to the next thing instead of stopping and thinking, wow, look, how far I've come look, what I've achieved a little grass or [00:15:00] Prosecco, even celebrate that success. It's all about building confidence.
Um, do you think there's a link or a similarity or difference even between, um, Imposter syndrome and self doubt. Uh, well I think, I think this, I think it's the, it can be one in the same, you know, if we talk about the imposter syndrome and where it came from, and he looked at the research that the two women that identified it, that was very much about high achieving women, not believing in their abilities.
I think the link really for me is that it can co pop up at any time. I'm a very confident person. I can, you know, in the days when you can talk at conferences, I can stand on the stage and I can talk. I spent 30 at well, not 70 years in uniform, but I spent a lot of time in a uniform, certainly at the very start feeling terrified, but I couldn't look terrified.
And certainly couldn't Santo fine. [00:16:00] So I persuaded myself that I, I was confident and I practiced and practiced. And in the end you believe it. Yes. And I think the same with self doubt, it can hit you concert from, from anywhere. Something seems to be going really well. Can happen. Somebody can say something quite innocent.
You can, you know, you can interpret something that somebody says on a call that you're on and take it all on suddenly. You know, everything that we'd built up feels like it's crumbling away. I think for me, it's really about building apart self-confidence and managing that self-doubt and acknowledging it's.
Okay. It's okay. To feel like that doesn't mean it's the end of the world and it doesn't mean that suddenly we're no good at what we do. Yes. And also, you know, uh, what you thinking. Um, to remind yourself that it's not necessarily the truth, you know, there's that quotes and that are wrote down here that I wanted to mention.
It says, [00:17:00] um, it's not what you are that holds you back. It's what you think that you are not. That spot Dennis Wakely and that greatly, um, is so true. It's about how you think about it when you become aware of it. And, um, you know, another, um, women that I spoke to recently pounder Royal, you know, her she's also, you know, she's, uh, she's been, I've been seeing her as a mentor and she's.
Taught me so much, um, you know, about thoughts and one of the things is that, you know, it's okay to have the thought, you know, later just pass through you and let it go. It's not going to stay there forever because imposter syndrome, which I definitely have from time to time, you know, you, you, some days you get up, you feel confident, you think.
Bring on anybody's problems, I can solve [00:18:00] them. And then the next day then you think, Oh, do I really know what I'm doing? You know, you get that feeling, but that goes. And then you see another client and you feel better. I don't know if you find it come in waves and Oh, absolutely. And you know, I, I take, um, heart from the fact that some very, very successful women are now prepared to talk about it.
Michelle Obama, Cheryl sunburn, you know, all these women have been quoted talking about the imposter syndrome. You know, they say I'm not super woman. Uh, this is what I do, but sometimes I think who am I to be here? I think we all do that. You know, I had a 30 year career in the place. I bought an MBA for my services to women in place.
Then you have a big party when you leave. There was a little bit of meeting the boss was going to come in and go, I don't know what you've been doing all this time. You know,
you [00:19:00] know, the most amazing people have it. It's okay. Like any sentence, and you understand this in the world of your work. It's when we let it overwhelm us and it becomes bigger than it needs to be, that it then becomes a problem and it becomes your reality. That's the problem. I think for me, that's one of the problems with.
Particularly now we're in, you know, as a friend of mine would say locked down 3.0. Here we are again, somewhat trapped in a houses offices, wherever we are constantly looking at screens being told that the only way to grow your businesses through social media, looking at other people's reality and social media.
I'm thinking that well, I'm not good enough because look how amazing they are when deep down, you know, that that's probably not their reality. And that's just the way of life, really the way things are [00:20:00] going. And that's, I think why it's even more important to be grounded in our own reality and know what, you know, if you're, if you've done really well in your business, in your career, it won't be because of luck.
People don't get promoted because they're lucky they might be in the right place at the right time. But that's probably because they've been positive and they've been looking for options. Yes. And wait for it to come to us. It's probably not going to, it's probably not going to happen. We make our luck.
We make our opportunities. As you talk about, you know, those thoughts that come into our heads. They did, they can turn into feelings, emotions, and completely overwhelmed us, but they all only souls, they will go away.
And I do just want to go back to the men's side of things. Um, I've been thinking a lot about, um, how things have kind of evolved with men and women and, um, [00:21:00] Uh, Wayne's into the statistics about imposter syndrome. And I saw how gradually the imposter syndrome figures have increased in men and come down in women in very interesting, which shows that the women are starting to feel more empowered and they are starting to believe in themselves a bit more, but it also is worrying to see that.
The opposite is happening with men. So what do you think needs to change in society to help men bring the figures down on imposter syndrome? So to speak so many interesting question, Tracy, I suppose if there's anything it's about awareness, if it's, I mean, you know, the statistics about men that were, have been more around suicide.
And I think that belief of how they, you know, I I've taught cause I talk for women about [00:22:00] the pressures on women to behave in certain way. But I think that's equally, uh, the same for men and their perceptions about how they have to behave. And therefore they, they have to be assertive and they have to be able to do this.
And I guess there's a link there with the imposter syndrome. If that's not your you're behaving in a way, because that's the expectation, whether that's your organization, whether that's your upbringing, it's the same for men and women. It's just different. Is that having an impact on their mental wellbeing and their own self dance.
And, uh, and I'll have a generation that will put everything at the door of social media. I'm afraid. I think, you know, very much we've got access to so much information. Um, and we're, you know, we carry around computers now. That can do the most amazing things. Uh, and whereas previously, if he wants to find something to get up and go look in a book or whatever, and I know that's all or not, I'm not being negative about now.
I just think it's very, very different [00:23:00] and we are evolving at such a pace. I think it's going to take real time for us all to catch up and awareness. It's gotta be, it's gotta be, you know, the best thing really. And I suppose if we come down, boil it down. Completely it's about talking about our feelings, isn't it.
You talked about, you know, talking with power, you know, I support other women and I have somebody that supports me. So I think having the opportunity to talk about things like that in any shape or form is going to help our mental wellbeing. And that's what we've got to do, particularly in the situation that we all find ourselves now.
Yes, specifically. Now we, people are feeling very overwhelmed because. They don't know what they feeling really. It's all a bit confusing. Yeah. So, um, you know, I think, um, you know, I, I feel that there's a lot of, um, sensitivity around the role of men that is, um, busy, [00:24:00] evolving, and it's becoming more of a shared all the roles are becoming a shared role.
And I think we're going to have to wait another generational. Maybe even two for, um, it's to become more clear. Um, you know, I S I C I have siblings that are all in different countries and I see how different each country almost is in the role of men and women. Um, in Australia, for instance, it's very 50 50 with the parent K and so on.
And I see my younger generation brothers looking after their children, um, when they wives go to work. Um, but I think. There is a bit of confusion in men. And I think that also creates a problem with the impostor syndrome now. Um, I don't know if you agree with me. Yeah, I th I th yes, I think so. I mean, it's not my area of expertise.
I think, you know, for me, this, um, [00:25:00] you know, there's challenges for men and women. My, my field is supporting women, as I said before. That's not because I want to support men. I just think. That's what I, my experience is, and that's what I'm good at. I think it all comes down to what are our limiting beliefs, what we carry around with us, um, and that can, you know, usually comes down to how we've been brought up our conditioning.
That continues as we go on. Um, And, and at the end of the day, we're all individual aren't we, we should, we should, we don't, we're not striving to be treated the same. We'll be striving to be treated as individuals and understood. And we've got our own responsibility to do our very best achieve our full potential and not let anything that goes on in our heads.
Hold us back. That's that's exactly it. Joel, you've just put it in a nutshell. Um, so what is the vision [00:26:00] for you, Joel? What's your vision in the coming years? Where do you see yourself as Joel Donald going? Um, well I, as you know, um, I've stepped away a little bit from the business networking side of the business and we've started a member's club and that's because really to think about what we're talking about now.
Um, I think I I've. I've run programs and training for many years, I think because of the position we find ourselves in and, uh, the world of online work, then I've got a responsibility to get some of that out into the online world. So when writing courses I've always liked writing, you know, the book I wrote celebrate success was.
Based on my life, how to be a successful working mom without the girls. You know, that's an, I could talk forever about working moms feeling guilty. Um, so that's, for me, I think, um, if ever I'm allowed to get anywhere where it's warmer and sunnier, I'd like the opportunity to do that. And if I'm doing my work online [00:27:00] and choosing when to do it, then that makes that much easier to do, do from wherever I am in the world.
If I can. Yes. It was interesting. I am, there was a group on Facebook that were doing all these. Vision boards. And everybody seems to want to be living on an Island somewhere Island pictures. And I thought, Oh my goodness, everybody wants to move to an Island. Hopefully, hopefully you can get some way where you can work remotely.
All the tone. I do love it in this country. I love it in the UK. I love it where we are on the South coast. Um, Yeah. So it was just the opportunity to get away. Occasionally would be nice. Um, if there's somebody listening that is thinking to themselves, I've got a serious, um, infection of, um, what, what would you say to them is something that they can [00:28:00] do every single day to gradually build their self self-confidence up?
What for you? What's your tone? My top tip, I suppose, it's at the end of the day. Um, or even the start of the day is to just, um, get a nice notebook or love stationary and write down. And the three things that you've achieved that maybe at the end of the week, cause that week, sometimes people don't have that struggle with self-doubt and self-confidence struggle to do that, but I think writing down what we've achieved.
In a positive way. And then the next day, or at the end of the week, reflecting on it and getting into the habit of doing that, that can really lift, uh, our attitude and I suppose, and build confidence because we all do amazing things and it doesn't have to be something big. You know, I talk a lot about success.
Success for some women is just getting out the door in the morning, in the days when we could [00:29:00] get out of the store. So it doesn't have to be major, but actually. You know, having that glass half full approach as opposed to half empty. Okay. What have I done today? What have I achieved? Yeah, that was good.
I'm going to write that down and consistently do it. And then at the end of the week, look at it and reward yourself for it. Um, And that I think helps build a more positive approach because it it's, it's easy to say think positively. It's easy to think. Say, don't think negatively. It's very hard. And when we, when we've got those voices in our heads, think about what your best friend would say about you, because usually your best friend would say something really positive.
So she can say something really positive, then I'm sure you come too. Exactly. It's just focusing on those little wins, the little wins. Don't take those for granted. No, Joel, thank you so much. It's been lovely talking to you and definitely I think, [00:30:00] um, I think we've reassured someone that's listened and thought, okay.
I thought there was something wrong with me. You know, there's nothing wrong with you. It's completely normal. Half of all women have imposter syndrome. And I always say the other half online everybody's got it. Absolutely. So it comes and goes and just let it flow.
Thank you so much for listening to me today and to my guest. Of course. Thank you, Joel, for coming and for sharing your amazing insights on this very interesting subject, which I'm sure so many of us can identify with. I myself often find myself doubting myself, but then I need to use my self awareness.
To bring me back to [00:31:00] reality and say, no, you deserve this. You've worked hard and you're not an imposter. Please remember to send this chat link to your friends and your family so that they can also listen and learn about imposter syndrome so that we can help people feel more normal and not feel like there's something wrong with them.
We all need to practice our resilience. And we are all just human beings. None of us are perfect. And it really helps to know that other people feel the same as you and me. If anything, in today's episode resonates with you and you feel that you might. I need somebody to talk to about it in. Please get in touch.
You can get hold of me on Instagram and Facebook. Tracy Kimberg hypnotherapist. You can email me tracy@tracykimberg.com or of course on my website, [00:32:00] Tracy. Kimberg. Dot com next week, I'm going to be talking about teenagers and how COVID has affected teenagers, especially in their mental health. So please keep a lookout and listen, next week when we release the teenage and COVID episode.
