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What does it really mean to lead like a spiritual father? In this episode, Mark and Dave unpack Paul’s blueprint for apostolic leadership—not as a flashy strategist, but as a scarred founder willing to build slow and love deep.

You'll hear why foundations matter, why founders must be misunderstood, and why the scars validate the message. If you’re vision is multiplying leaders, movements, or churches, this conversation reframes your role—and your costs.

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