Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 308.
This is my appearance on John Stossel’s Fox Business News show, Stossel, back on Jan. 30, 2015. I just realized I had never put it here in my podcast feed, so here it is. The full episode is streamed below (I recommend also my friend David Koepsell's segment); my audio clip is included in this podcast episode. Discussed further in KOL171 | With Albert Lu Discussing Stossel and IP.
Grok shownotes and transcript below.
From: Stossel Show on Intellectual Property
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A few weeks ago I was invited to appear on an upcoming episode of John Stossel's Fox Business News show, Stossel. I flew to New York last Wednesday for a Thursday taping; the show will air this Friday, Jan. 30. I had a great time. Had dinner with several local libertarian friends (David Kramer, Isaac Bergmann, Evan Isaac, etc.) and my long-time friend Jack Criss, who joined me on the trip. Spent a while seeing New York, with my friend Dante Bayona as a helpful guide. New York was cold, but we still enjoyed it. (Pix from the trip below.)
The taping on Thursday went well—I was nervous but think I did okay. There were five guests altogether. The first segment was a debate between anti-IP anarchist David Koepsell and a conventional IP attorney; then a magician who was upset about people "stealing" his magic tricks; then me; then Chris Sprigman, about whom I've written before. I was a little leery that this was kind of a setup or something, but Stossel and the Fox News staff could not have been nicer or more professional. My impression is Stossel is leaning our way, as indicated in his Reason post, which quote me and Koepsell and criticizes IP (Owning Ideas—An Outdated Idea?; see also his column Owning Ideas). As far as I know this is the first time IP has been examined in such a major, national forum, and from a principled, and radical, free market perspective. Kudos to Stossel.
More on Stossel's show here. The episode airs 9pm EST this Friday night, Jan. 30, on Fox Business, and apparently re-airs on Fox News Channel Sunday night.
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Grok summary:
Show Notes: KOL308 | Stossel: It’s My Idea! (2015) with Stephan Kinsella and Guests
Introduction to Intellectual Property and Piracy Concerns [0:01–1:00]
John Stossel opens the episode by addressing the issue of piracy, noting that The Wolf of Wall Street was the most illegally downloaded movie in 2014, highlighting Hollywood’s and musicians’ struggles with unauthorized copying. He explains that U.S. law grants creators exclusive rights to songs, books, movies, and paintings to foster innovation through a limited period of exclusivity. Stossel illustrates this with a clip from a gangster movie where Denzel Washington’s character defends his drug brand “Blue Magic” as a trademark, emphasizing the value of brand identity. He introduces the debate by questioning whether watching his show on YouTube constitutes stealing, setting the stage for a discussion on intellectual property (IP) with guests including David Koepsell, Lawrence Suskind, Rick Lax, Stephan Kinsella, Chris Sprigman, and Doug Stanhope.
The Role of IP in Encouraging Innovation [1:00–3:13]
Stossel frames the historical significance of ideas, crediting innovations like the printing press and electricity for improving billions of lives. He poses the problem: why invest years in creating if others can copy the idea and undercut prices? Using a light bulb invention example from filmmaker Kirby Ferguson, he argues that without recouping development costs, creators may be discouraged. Stossel explains that copyrights and patents were introduced to address this by granting temporary exclusivity—copyrights for media, patents for inventions. He notes the extension of copyright terms over time, from 28 years in 1831 to the author’s life plus 70 years by 1998, which David Koepsell criticizes as excessive, advocating for the abolition of all IP rights, while Lawrence Suskind, an IP attorney, defends their necessity.
Debating Copyrights and Moral Rights [3:13–11:22]
The first segment features a debate between David Koepsell, who opposes IP, and Lawrence Suskind, who supports it. Koepsell argues that creators like Shakespeare thrived without copyright, profiting through reputation and performances, as ideas are non-scarce and IP laws stifle free expression. Suskind counters that creators have a moral right to protect their work, akin to a farmer’s right to land, and cites Shakespeare’s harsh measures against play pirates. Koepsell highlights software developers opting out of IP, relying on brand strength, while Suskind defends pharmaceutical patents due to high R&D costs. The discussion touches on music copyright issues, referencing George Harrison’s $1.5 million lawsuit for “subconsciously” copying “He’s So Fine” in “My Sweet Lord.” Stossel critiques Disney’s lobbying to extend copyrights for works like Snow White, which Koepsell calls cronyism, noting that public domain stories are exploited while new works are locked up until 2032.
Magicians and Protecting Trade Secrets [11:22–18:14]
Stossel introduces magician Rick Lax, who discusses how magicians protect their tricks without relying on IP laws. Lax shares how a Russian individual profited by selling the secret to his “Vertigo” trick, prompting him to create a fake exposure video to mislead copycats. He explains that patenting a trick reveals its mechanism, so magicians avoid it, relying instead on community norms. Lax recounts the case of Valentino, a Vegas magician ostracized for revealing secrets on TV, and contrasts this with Teller’s rare success in copyrighting a trick’s choreography, winning $155,000 against a Belgian copycat. Lax compares magicians’ secrecy to trade secrets like Coca-Cola’s formula, which remain protected without registration, though stealing such secrets is a federal crime, as seen in a case involving Pepsi and the FBI.
Internet Piracy and Libertarian Perspectives on IP [18:14–24:07]
Stephan Kinsella, author of Against Intellectual Property, joins Stossel to argue that IP laws censor free speech and hinder learning, copying, and remixing—key to human progress. He rejects the term “piracy,” asserting that copying ideas doesn’t deprive creators, as seen in widespread internet sharing. Kinsella, a libertarian, argues that patents and copyrights, unlike perpetual property rights, expire (patents after 17 years, copyrights much later), proving they are state-granted monopolies, not true property rights, as detailed in The Problem with Intellectual Property. Stossel admits he’s pleased when his show is shared online but worries about Fox’s funding without IP protection. Kinsella counters that popularity from copying boosts creators’ fame, and alternative revenue streams like ticket sales or YouTube channels suffice, citing the defeat of SOPA legislation as a win against internet surveillance.
The Fashion Industry and the Benefits of Knockoffs [24:07–32:20]
Chris Sprigman, co-author of The Knockoff Economy, discusses how the fashion industry thrives without copyright protection. Stossel showcases undercover footage of counterfeit Louis Vuitton bags sold in Chinatown for $200, far below the $1,000–$25,000 originals. Sprigman argues that knockoffs democratize fashion, allowing stylish looks for less without harming luxury brands, whose wealthy customers seek status and exclusive experiences. He explains that copying signals trends, fueling a fashion cycle that benefits the industry, as noted in his C4SIF posts. Sprigman dismisses claims that counterfeiting funds crime or costs jobs, calling International Chamber of Commerce figures baseless, though he acknowledges risks in pharmaceuticals and airplane parts. He cites Charles Dickens’ success in America, where lack of copyright for foreign authors led to cheap books, boosting literacy and Dickens’ lecture tour earnings, as discussed in Freakonomics: Does Copyright Make Books Disappear?.
Comedians and Self-Regulation Against Joke Stealing [32:20–36:53]
Doug Stanhope, a libertarian comedian, explains how comedians self-regulate against joke stealing without government intervention. He notes that open mic performers caught stealing are publicly shamed and ostracized. Stanhope recounts how Robin Williams and Milton Berle were labeled joke stealers, with Williams facing physical confrontations and payments. He discusses Louis C.K.’s gracious handling of Dane Cook’s alleged theft, contrasted with Joe Rogan’s public call-out of Carlos Mencia, which ruined Mencia’s career. Stanhope emphasizes that comedy’s community norms effectively deter theft, aligning with Kinsella’s view in Defamation as a Type of Intellectual Property that reputation-based systems, not state laws, can govern creative industries.
Copyright, Parody, and Final Thoughts [36:53–41:06]
Stossel highlights the absurdity of IP laws, noting that singing “Happy Birthday” on air could cost Fox millions due to Warner Music’s ownership, despite minor alterations failing to bypass copyright. He explains that parody is a legal exception, allowing mockery of works, as seen in clips mimicking his show. Stossel notes international IP violations, like China’s “Sunbucks” coffee or “Crust” toothpaste, reflecting weak enforcement abroad. He references Thomas Jefferson’s view that ideas, like candlelight, can be shared without loss, though Jefferson supported limited IP terms. Stossel concludes ambivalently, acknowledging libertarian arguments against IP from Kinsella and others but defending some IP laws, as they incentivize his books and Fox’s show. He suggests creativity flourishes when ideas are free, echoing Matt Ridley’s metaphor of ideas “having sex” to birth better ones, but remains concerned about funding creative production without IP.
Transcript:
Introduction to Intellectual Property and Piracy [0:01–1:00]
Timestamp: 0:01
