Shows
Arguing AgileAA223 - People Don't Quit Jobs, They Quit Bosses! Part IIPeople don't quit jobs - they quit bad bosses... OR DO THEY?!? We had so many untouched debate points from our first episode that it would have been a crime - A CRIME - to throw it all away. So we decided to do a part 2! That's right, we're back and Brian tries to make his argument with all new points - are we blaming individual managers for systemic failures? Listen or watch as we (Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel) debate all new points and explore how broken systems ma...
2025-08-0637 min
Arguing AgileAA176 - Arguing on Moving Away from Durable Teams toward Shared ServicesIn this episode of the Arguing Agile podcast, Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando debate the pros and cons of using shared services teams versus fully dedicated, cross-functional teams (otherwise known in Marty Cagan circles as "durable teams"). They explore common arguments made for shared services models, such as resource utilization, cost efficiency, and standardization. Om and Brian then counter these points, discussing the negative impacts on team cohesion, context switching, and ability to deliver customer value quickly. Understand the organizational and cultural forces that lead to shared services, and...
2024-08-0753 min
Arguing AgileAA162 - 5 Things to Analyze Before Shuffling Your TeamsAre you (or management) considering shuffling team members to improve performance?Before you play musical chairs, explore the latest Arguing Agile Podcast (Linked in the comments) for ways to make sure you're using data, not just reacting to hearsay and emotions!Organizational design is difficult - don't just stumble through it.We all know shuffling people between teams can disrupt team dynamics and set teams back to the "forming" stage. Listen as Enterprise Business Agility Coach Hemant (Om) Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando discuss shuffling team members and outline 5 areas to be...
2024-05-0141 min
Arguing AgileAA161 - How Company Size Impacts Business Agility (with Ed Martin)In this episode of the Arguing Agile podcast, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel are joined by Software Development expert Ed Martin for an exploration how company size affects business agility. We discuss the challenges that arise as organizations scale from 3 people to 30 to 300 and beyond, covering topics like losing the culture of experimentation, organizational rigidity, continuous improvement, and the "rule of 3 and 10". Listen as we share real-world examples on how to maintain agility while growing your business. Listen to learn strategies for reinventing your culture, org design best practices...
2024-04-2449 min
Arguing AgileAA142 - What Technical Skills Should a Scrum Master HaveThe question came up recently at a community event: "What Technical Skills Should a Scrum Master Have?"Brian didn't answer the originally posed question, turning it into "What skills should a SM have," and that bugged him so much, he wanted to turn the actual question into a podcast!On this episode, Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando discuss the corporate atmosphere that may be behind this question, as well as answering the re-worded question, and even delving into some pros and cons of the Scrum Master having technical skills.
2023-12-1339 min
Arguing AgileAA139 - We Have No QARecently, a small audience was shocked to learn that Product Manager Brian Orlando has no team members in the permanent role of QA (or Testing).On this episode, Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando discuss why the audience reacted like Brian just kicked their dog, and what it takes to get a hypothetical team to the same point.0:00 Topic Intro: We Have No QA0:26 The Backstory1:46 It's What We've Always Done2:43 Handoff Disfunctions4:55 Efficiency7:27 Brian's Programming Story8:52 Unpacking Brian's Tirade10:00 What Are Testers Doing?
2023-11-2233 min
Arguing AgileAA133 - Do Infrastructure Teams Need Product Management?In this episode, we explore an article titled "Do Infrastructure Teams Need Product Management." Join Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel as we discuss the realities of Infrastructure or Platform teams and the reasons they team might or might not have a Product Manager.Click here for the Source Article.0:00 Topic Intro: Do Infrastructure Teams Need Product Management0:26 Reading the Article1:29 Om's Initial Take3:13 Arguing on Observation #1: Seasoned Teams4:37 Why So Scarce?5:51 What is Culture?9:00 Statement #2 - Solving Different Problems14:01 Reframing the...
2023-10-1150 min
Arguing AgileAA124 - Blockers, Impediments, and DependenciesThe team constantly scans for impediments. The scrum master should be "causing the removal of impediments."...but how?In this episode, Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando deep dive into the world of impediments.Are impediments the same as blockers? Is a dependency an impediment? How do we deal with organizational design and communication between teams as an impediment?What happened to Brian's hair?!?All these discussions and more, on this episode of Arguing Agile!0:00 Topic Intro0:38 Blockers...
2023-08-0935 min
Arguing AgileAA122 - What to Do When the Scrum Master and Product Owner are the Same PersonAyo is back to talk about his experience with the same person serving as both Scrum Master and Product Owner. With a different take on this topic, Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando explore what to do if you might be in this position rather than the textbook concept of "should" or "can" one person play both roles.0:00 Topic Intro0:42 The Textbook Answer2:14 Ayo's Experience4:16 Brian's Start in Product7:38 Om's First Product Experience8:18 Conflict of Interest10:38 Doing More, Coaching Up14:24 Split Accountability17:13 Wearing...
2023-07-2637 min
Arguing AgileAA115 - Going from Scrum Master to Product Manager (and why you should)Both Product Manager Brian Orlando and Product Manager Tricia Barnes have been recommending to our favorite Special Mystery Guest that she consider transition her career towards Product Management. On this episode, we talk about the benefits, advantages, and concerns of a Scrum Master moving into a Product role.Bonus points if this has been your career journey - we'd like to hear from you in the comments!0:00 Topic Intro0:12 Less Stress4:32 Growth for Scrum Masters12:33 Leadership Skills15:44 Accountability & Decision Making20:41 Accountability & Communication26:09 Compensation30:47 Agile Experts33:46...
2023-06-0749 min
Arguing AgileAA112 - Master Agile Estimation by Evolving Beyond ItIn this information-packed episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel dive deep into the process of evolving a software development team past spending significant time on estimation to becoming so proficient that estimation becomes unnecessary. In this podcast, you'll learn invaluable tips, techniques, and strategies to help your team streamline their estimation process, reduce unknowns, and enhance collaboration with stakeholders. From breaking down work through vertical slicing to learning stories and transferring skills - get ready to learn how to transform your team!0:00 Send Us Your Questions!1:55 Evolving a Team2:56 Why...
2023-05-1737 min
Arguing AgileAA109 - 3 Types of Teams (from Post-Capitalist Society by Peter Drucker)In this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel discuss the three different types of teams described by Peter Drucker in his 1994 book: Post-Capitalist Society.0:00 Intro0:18 Today's Topic1:35 Peter Drucker on Teams3:05 Why This Book?5:41 Team Transformation is Agile Transformation8:17 Existing Team Models11:01 The First Team Type12:51 Misapplying the Model15:29 Tight Specializations (Back-End & Front-End)17:58 UI/UX19:51 Summarizing the First Example22:09 The Second Team Type26:48 Out of Sync Org Design29:38 The Third Team Type33:52 Which Type is Management Structured to...
2023-04-2637 min
Arguing AgileAA108 - Breaking into Penetration Testing and Career Paths, with Steve KlineIn this episode, Lead Web Application Penetration Tester Steve Kline joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel to discuss the field of penetration testing. In addition to discussing how people break into pen testing, we talk about commonalities in career paths, differences in training and certifications, and the assumption of risk (or not).0:00 Topic Intro0:28 Breaking In4:53 Getting into Pen Testing9:13 Journey to Pen Testing13:29 Jumping Straight In (No Experience)17:30 Arguing on NFRs18:54 Appetite for Risk27:22 Org Structure of Pen Testers30:09 Business Viability
2023-04-1953 min
Arguing AgileAA106 - Imposter Syndrome in Product ManagementAre you a Product Manager or Product Owner?Do you sometimes feel like you are an imposter?Join Product Managers Stormy Dickson and Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Hemant (Om) Patel as they talk about the reasons, and what can be done to minimize or overcome imposter syndrome.#impostersyndrome #productmanagement #career 0:00 Topic Intro0:12 Empowerment1:33 Push-Back on Empowerment5:12 Being "New" At The Company9:48 Choose Responsibility12:47 Future Leadership Panel Interview14:38 Influence16:34 Politics or Leadership?19:58 Being a Better Communicator23:59 Bringing People Together28:27 Repeating Yo...
2023-04-0546 min
Arguing AgileAA105 - Where Have All the Scrum Masters Gone?On this episode, Scrum Master Ayo Eyo joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Om Patel to talk about the value a Scrum Master brings to an organization - and to answer the question, where have all the Scrum Masters gone?0:00 Topic Intro0:33 Ayo is Back!1:14 Surfing TikTok2:41 Why Does This Seem Prevalent5:43 Essential SM Skills10:00 Why Do We Need a SM, What Do They Do12:26 Go Faster14:34 Taylorism Brick Laying Example16:35 Show Me the Metrics19:43 Impediments and Dependencies21:48 How Management Thinks25:38 Responding to...
2023-03-2955 min
Arguing AgileAA99 - How to be a More Respected Agile CoachDo you want to know all the secrets to being a better, more respected Agile Coach?If so, then this podcast is for you! In this episode, Enterprise Agile Coach reveals the secrets of Agile Coaching success to Product Manager Brian Orlando.0:00 Intro0:21 Topic Intro0:36 Have a Vision3:12 What's a Vision?5:21 Courage7:29 Courage, but with Impact12:17 Asking for Help13:57 Communicate Like a Doctor17:25 Scrum Master Coaching Metrics21:20 Projecting Confidence24:36 Evidence = Confidence27:45 Enthusiasm is Infectious29:59 Mindset31:48 Communicating Through Questions37:29 Process Vision38:54...
2023-02-1040 min
Arguing AgileAA98 - Are B2C and B2B Product Management Different Skills?Do B2C and B2B Product Managers need different skills?Product Manager Brian Orlando kicks this podcast off by telling the story of how he once missed out on an opportunity because of this question. Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel joins to weigh in on this discussion, adding how B2B and B2C might be change the way teams work. 0:00 Topic Intro0:59 Reading the Post1:31 Core & Product-Specific Skills3:09 Skills vs Traits6:32 Building the Argument9:32 Feedback12:34 Contracts13:49 B2B Stakeholder Management15:49 The PM Books Experiment18:48...
2023-02-0357 min
Arguing AgileAA97 - The What & the How: Two Sides of Software DevelopmentIn the agile software development discipline, the customer is represented by two separate yet equally important groups: The Business, who brings WHAT to build, and the team(s), who decide HOW it gets built. These are their stories.Cue the Law and Order "DUN-DUN!"On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel talk about the two cycles that exist in product development, the "what" and the "how." We discuss how they should function in small, medium, and large businesses and the common dysfunctions that growth brings to the cycles.
2023-01-2750 min
Arguing AgileAA95 - Project-Led to Product-Led (with Product Coach Mike Miller)Today, we're talking about the things we don't talk about - transformations!On this episode, Product Coach Mike Miller joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to talk about moving from a Project-led organization to one that is more Product-led.0:00 Failed Intro0:13 The Real Intro0:36 Where Did This Come From?1:44 What's Wrong with Projects?2:56 Physical Products and Risk Tolerance7:11 Services that Also Have Products9:34 Products with Services11:30 Brian's Product-Led Pitch12:29 Exploring Manufacturing Roots14:53 Arguing on Silos16:52 Customer Delight19:11 Project-Led Impact
2023-01-1349 minArguing AgileAA94 - Don't Say CollaborationThe most successful leaders have the ability to get people working together.Why is it then, so many organizations have cultures where people are discouraged from working together (for example, development teams where they don't peer program)?On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel talk about getting people to work together without using the word collaboration.0:00 An Interesting Exchange...1:05 Who Benefits from this Podcast?2:17 Everything is Priority-One4:09 Why the Problem?5:51 Chaotic Organizations8:43 Transparency vs Covert Backlogs11:27 A Theoretical (but very real...
2023-01-0655 minArguing AgileAA93 - Being a Positive Advocate for AgileDo you consider yourself an advocate for agile and for positive change?On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to talk about what makes a good agile advocate.0:00 Intro - Being a Good Advocate0:08 Om's Take1:15 Stormy's Take2:32 Metrics3:36 Keeping People Busy4:54 An Experience (Keeping People Busy)6:34 Scientific Method, By Another Name8:42 Being Empowered11:22 Deeper Thinking on Culture13:54 Thinking on Motives16:07 Who Advocates for Agile18:51 By Developers for Developers21:28...
2022-12-3042 minArguing AgileAA92 - Life without a Scrum MasterDoes your team or org have a Scrum Master or Agile Coach? Many do not.Organizations without Scrum Masters have many common challenges and in this episode we discuss those challenges in-depth!Listen as Product Manager and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to discuss what life is like without a Scrum Master.0:00 Topic Intro0:23 Metaphors!2:26 Challenging the Analogy3:30 Team Development5:10 Who is Leadership? Small Companies.7:07 Who is Leadership? SMBs.8:14 Segue: Scaling Bad Practices8:55 Who...
2022-12-2350 minArguing AgileAA91 - Going from Product Owner to Product ManagerDo you want to be a Product Manager and have been doing the role of Product Owner on a Scrum Team?On this episode, Product Manager and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando to talk about her transition from being a Product Owner (as a job title and role) to being a Product Manager and the difference she has noticed.0:00 Topic Intro0:25 Starting with Teams2:16 Stormy's Experiences with Self Managing Teams5:26 Brian's Questions...6:48 Change Triggered by Crisis9:20 Brian's Take: PO vs PM Job Roles10:29 Strategy11:42...
2022-12-1645 minArguing AgileAA90 - Org Culture (with Stormy Dickson)On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel are joined by Product Manager Stormy Dickson to talk about culture, incentives, and the challenges of trying to change organizations.0:00 Topic Intro0:50 Engrained in the Culture4:52 Pondering Large Companies7:40 Challenging Organizations10:31 Big Cultural Red Flags11:50 Changing Your Organization13:35 Sidebar on Dunbar's Number15:08 Start with Yourself17:52 Bad Apples20:41 Incentives23:39 Diversity25:32 Walk the Gemba26:59 Breaking Down the Org (Dunbar's Number, Part 2)30:54 Same Company, Different Cultures33:39 Training37:57 Incentives & Erosion39:36 Long Term...
2022-12-0946 minArguing AgileAA87 - Burnt-Out Product ManagersOn this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel read through and discuss a recent article authored by a (clearly burnt-out) Product Manager.0:00 Topic Intro0:28 Reading the Post3:38 Meaningless Work8:42 Building the Wrong Thing (aka. Failure)10:32 Building the Wrong Thing, Continued13:33 Blame Game17:28 Burn-out or Failure to Coach?20:38 Culture Eats Strategy23:14 Continuous Discovery27:10 Being Not Good at Anything29:46 Never Read the Comments32:09 Making a Case with Data34:55 Getting Cut40:48 Wrap-up= = = = = = = = = = = =Watch it on YoutubePlease...
2022-11-1141 minArguing AgileAA86 - New Product Owners and Product ManagersYou've been either hired or promoted as a new Product Manager or Owner. Congratulations!What should you do next? What might you expect? What can you do to ensure success?On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel talk about what it's like to be a new Product Owner or Product Manager.0:00 Topic Intro0:35 Why/What3:59 Starting with Why6:16 Starting Points11:27 Crossing the Chasm14:08 Do You Have the Skills?19:44 Being a Good Leader24:07 Starting Fresh/New30:26 Feature Parity with Competitors
2022-11-0448 minArguing AgileAA85 - Deadlines in AgileLet's talk about deadlines!Why do people say that agile doesn't do deadlines? Why do people commit to dates without engaging the team? Finally, what are better ways to handle deadlines?On this episode, join Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel as they talk through deadlines.0:00 Intro0:22 Why Deadlines1:33 Agile Can't Do Deadlines5:02 Committing when You Can't Deliver6:58 WIFM9:22 Seemingly Random Dates13:17 Sales as an Example18:34 Roadmap for Sales21:52 A History of Milestones...24:30 Phase 2: What to Do?26:13 Reframing Deadlines...
2022-10-2848 minArguing AgileAA84 - Stakeholders in the Scrum EventsHave you ever been asked to invite someone outside of the Scrum Team to one or more of the Scrum Team's Events?On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel go event by event to talk about when it is right to invite stakeholders to your Scrum Events, and when it is "not right!"0:00 Topic Intro0:20 Daily Scrum, by the Book2:48 Daily Scrum, the Real World6:49 Uninvited Guests9:58 Disciplined & Undisciplined Stakeholders14:35 Sprint Retrospective16:56 Outsiders in the Retro18:51 Sprint Review23:03 External vs Internal...
2022-10-2137 minArguing AgileAA83 - Agile Doesn't Work HereHow many times have you heard "agile doesn't work here?"On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel talk through the typical reasons (some legitimate, some excuses) for the statement "agile doesn't work here."0:00 Topic Intro0:53 Two Common Issues5:11 Ego and/or Fear6:51 Leading with Vision11:07 Fear of Failure14:31 Institutionalized Inability to Trust19:25 What can be Done?22:07 Agile Sponsorship & Enablement24:29 Middle Managers28:33 Incentives & Sales34:36 Sales & Incentives, Continued37:51 Incentives for Development39:35 Self Managing Teams & Salaries45:49 Dedicated Teams (aka...
2022-10-1459 minArguing AgileAA82 - What does a Scrum Master Do All Day (Part 3: the Org)"What does a Scrum Master do all day?" If you are in an organization where you hear this question, you are aware that people are failing to realize that one third of the Scrum Master's responsibilities are about coaching the organization.On this episode, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel talk about how a Scrum Master spends their day coaching the organization, or, as Om likes to say, "Coaching Up!"0:00 Topic Intro0:33 Coaching the Organization4:03 What do you Do All Day?6:36 Scrum Adoption - Upstream/Downstream
2022-10-0759 minArguing AgileAA81 - What does a Scrum Master Do All Day (Part 2: the Product)Outside of the daily scrum, what does a Scrum Master do all day?One third of the Scrum Guide's answer to this is "Serves the Product Owner," and that is what this entire episode is about!Join Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson with Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to talk about how a Scrum Master spends their day serving the product owner. 0:00 Topic Intro0:45 Effective Product Goal Definition4:51 Clarity in Goal Definition11:36 Lack of Strategy22:46 Finding Techniques without Help29:49 Clear and...
2022-09-3059 minArguing AgileAA80 - What does a Scrum Master Do All Day (Part 1: the Team)Outside of the daily scrum, what does a Scrum Master do all day?If you've ever been asked this question - this is the podcast for you!On this episode, Scrum Master Ayo Eyo joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to talk about how Scrum Masters spend their day while serving the team. Special shout out to Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson who just happened to be in the neighborhood and joined us for the last half!= = = = = = = = = = = =Watch it on Youtube!Please Subscribe...
2022-09-2344 minArguing AgileAA79 - The Case Against Psychological Safety, with Stormy DicksonHave you ever been in an organization where psychological safety was ridiculed or derided? On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando to see if a case can be made against psychological safety.0:00 Topic Intro1:47 Unearned Autonomy6:25 Empowered Teams, but Incentivizing Individuals11:01 A Shield Against Accountability14:33 Incentives via Consensus19:46 Transparency in Financials24:32 Prioritization30:27 Stormy's Summary33:50 Decision Making (Consensus vs Lobbying)= = = = = = = = = = = =Watch on YouTube...or Subscribe to our YouTube Channel= = = = = = = = = = = =Apple Podcasts:https...
2022-09-1637 minArguing AgileAA78 - Building the Wrong Thing, with Senior Scrum Master Ted WellsHave you ever been handed a feature to build rather than a problem to solve?Have you ever built a feature touted as the next big thing only to find out that it was never used or needed?On this episode, Senior Scrum Master Ted Wells joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel as they talk about building the wrong thing.0:00 Topic Intro0:35 Product-Led and Sales-Led Organizations4:14 Visionary-Led Organizations6:59 Working Backwards11:03 Arguing Against16:10 Order-Taker or Waiter Product People20:43 The Need for Refactoring26:28...
2022-09-0956 minArguing AgileAA77 - Technical or Not? Backgrounds of Product Managers or OwnersIn Product Management, does having a Technical Background help or not?On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to explore how the background of a Product Manager (or Product Owner) may benefit or hinder.0:00 Imposter Syndrome0:35 Start with Why4:30 Navigating Difficult Situations8:27 Stormy's Experiences12:37 Constantly Starting Over14:49 Making the Transition17:46 Partnering with Tech Leader22:14 Creating Culture27:18 Learning to Fly29:24 Pro's of the Non-Technical PM36:38 Courage is a Value40:57 Stereotypes & Assumptions
2022-09-0247 minArguing AgileAA76 - Product Owner vs Product ManagerIs there a difference between a Product Owner and a Product Manager? And if the answer is yes (surprise, it is), what is the difference?On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to explore the differences between Product Owners and Product Managers.0:00 Topic Intro: PO vs PM0:19 Mike Miller Definition3:06 Collaboration in Product Roles6:35 Strategic vs Tactical12:06 Heirarchy Driven by Incentives15:32 Brian's Counter-point18:43 Role vs Job22:58 Technical Product Owner28:27 Domain Knowledge39:52 Working...
2022-08-261h 01Arguing AgileAA75 - Definition of DoneBeyond what is in the Scrum Guide, how do we work with the definition of done?On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson joins Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel to explore the definition of done.0:00 Topic Intro1:28 Defining Definition of Done5:14 Breaking DoD8:44 Contributing and/or Ignoring13:39 Adapting or Extending the DoD18:41 Who Prompts a Revision?20:53 The Hawthorne Effect23:46 Back to Revisions25:56 The First DoD31:25 Stormy's Summary35:35 No Silver Bullet= = = = = = = = = = = =Watch on YouTube:...
2022-08-1939 minArguing AgileAA74 - Bad Certification Experiences & Maybe Bad Certifications...Have you had a bad experience with a certification or certification class?On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson discusses her bad experience with the CSPO certification. Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel ask questions and wonder what could be changed within the system to make sure these kinds of things don't happen.0:00 Topic Intro0:21 Stormy's Certification Experience7:26 How Did We Get Here?14:28 Scrum Master Experience25:47 Organizational Change-Agents39:12 Experts Teaching Experts41:44 Base Level for Entry48:14 Making Money While Being Ethical52:21...
2022-08-121h 22