Fung-Ling And Derek - Podcast Details

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Licensed PoeticsI hosted a Pride and Prejudice watch party!LP’s hosts reveal more about themselves than they ever have before. Fung-Ling was nearly laid off, Derek is in enormous pain, but both have decided to show up despite it all. FL dropped the most ludicrous phrase on LP yet, ‘intellectual interior’, which she is prepared to give up in order to have real friends. Who would have thought living your life would be actually fulfilling?Chapters00:00 Intro01:13 Aspiring or not?13:55 Good quality convos19:57 P and P watch party27:59 Corporate sucks33:34 The popular kids4...2025-06-2241 min

Licensed Poetics39. Neon Genesis Evangelion | Licensed Poetics Anime ClubIt’s time! LP’s first ever anime club pick is, of course, the industry-defining, culture-shifting, legendary Eva. We began with the 26 episodes available on Netflix, and discussed its themes of abandonment, self-loathing, and daddy issues. Fun! Oh and Derek used to be a member of his university’s anime club.Chapters00:00 Intro08:43 Synopsis40:46 Spoilers01:08:12 Outro 2025-06-081h 08

Licensed Poetics38. 2k words a day: a published novelist visits LP! ft. S.R. StuartAuthor SR Stuart appears on LP to discuss his debut novel, Mr Muerte, a mystery/thriller written during a two-year journey backpacking through the Americas. He shares the inspiration behind his novel, a controversial recent read, and inspires Derek and Fung-Ling to be better writers and to, like, actually start writing?!Buy Sean’s book Mr MuerteChapter00:00 Music01:49 Sean’s bio04:59 Reading update12:13 Synopsis of Mr Muerte30:50 Writing routine57:00 Outro 2025-05-2557 min

Licensed Poetics37: Sherlock, Rick, and Oppenheimer: the Lone Genius trope and why it worksWhy does the main character look like? In this very writerly discussion, Derek dissects tropes and wishes he could use them. BFL laments her past resistance to the Great Man History way of writing, because making a main character an idolise-able hero freaking works.Chapters00:00 Intro01:42 Reading update13:00 the lone genius16:04 main character must be extraordinary42:09 Nolan & great man history50:25 outro 2025-05-1150 min

Licensed Poetics36. Books and Dating: Red Flag Books and yes, we’re attracted to themThis week, BFL and Derek get real personal and delve into their love lives. What if your partner doesn’t like reading? What books would you performatively read in public to pull your type? What books are red flags? Green flags? How fast should you run when you meet a guy who likes Murakami? or High Fidelity?Chapters00:00 Intro02:47 Derek’s recent dates11:26 High Fidelity27:07 Red and green flags58:05 Outro 2025-04-2758 min

Licensed Poetics35. “I’m not Patti Smith. This ain’t the Chelsea Hotel” | Bookclub on Just KidsThis week, BFL and Derek read a musician’s memoir, Just Kids by Patti Smith, which is famously referenced in The Tortured Poets Department by Taylor Swift. They start off the episode by discussing BFL’s relationship struggles (?!?!), then they open up about the conceit of being an artist, before reacting to some scornful Goodreads reviews of their new favourite book. It’s a special episode.Chapters00:00 Intro04:21 Why this book?31:40 XYZ question46:43 Artist’s conceit55:20 Goodreads reviews 2025-04-131h 02

Licensed Poetics34. Severance: religious & corporate satire | TV club with Licensed Poetics![Split into spoiler-free and spoiler sections] In LP’s first ever TV club, Derek and Fung-Ling dissect the TV show that everybody is talking about, Severance, created by Dan Erickson. They talk about the show’s pacing, themes, acting, set design, and plot, while relating it to their own experiences working in corporate jobs. This episode is about Season 1.Chapters00:00 Music02:14 Synopsis02:38 Showrunner bio14:30 Corporate satire32:55 Spoiler51:40 IMDB reviews 2025-03-3059 min

Licensed Poetics33. A Fun Read: Lovecraftian without the racism!? Bookclub ft. Kwame SlusherLP sits down with Kwame, a friend from FBi Radio, and discuss Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff. HP Lovecraft advanced the comic horror genre, but also left some racist and terrible impact on literature. Does this new take on 1950s America subvert Lovecraftian racism? Join Fung-Ling, Derek, and Kwame in their very nerdy discussion.Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee!Find Kwame @kwameslusherChapters00:00 Intro01:02 Guest bio06:25 Synopsis22:50 Structure36:00 XYZ question54:52 If I was the writer…01:00:10 Goodreads...2025-03-161h 11

Licensed Poetics32. John Green: a secret formula behind his bestselling novels | Author SpotlightIn this casual episode, LP takes a break from book clubs and reminisce on an author who has a special place in many people’s hearts, John Green. BFL and Derek dive into his novels, podcasts, educational videos and philanthropic work, after they give an update on their chaotic writing life.Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee!chapters00:00 Intro00:11 Writing update09:50 John Green's work and influence19:17 JG work we have consumed28:00 JG fiction formula31:40 Crash Course50:05 JG’s general life advi...2025-03-0257 min

Licensed Poetics31. Bookclub on Milan Kundera: he gave us an STI and we outwanked this wankerIn line with LP’s new branding as the BEST book podcast for writers, Derek and BFL discuss The Art of the Novel by the patron saint of literary wankers, Czech-French author Milan Kundera. He has had an enormous impact on BFL’s writing, and maybe even transmitted parts of himself to her, oh my god. Meanwhile, Derek has a love hate relationship with this book, and shares his delightful meta spirals. Chat, you’re welcome.BFL’s piece link hereSupport LP link here00:00 Intro00:51 Table of contents04:46 Why this...2025-02-161h 09

Licensed Poetics30. Bookclub on Ken Liu: 'I hope my cancer stays away so I can finish the series' ft. Jeremy Khoa DangDerek’s best friend and ex-landlord Jeremy recommended The Wall of Storms by Ken Liu, the translator of The Three Body Problem, so of course LP had to read it. What did they think? Who, if anyone, would they recommend it to? Finally, they also react to some truly unhinged Goodreads reviews. PS, please, Ken, I want to be your friend.Support LP hereChapters00:00 Intro09:18 Five word summary26:03 About the author35:21 The XYZ question01:10:34 Recommend?01:16:56 Spoilers!01:26:59 Goodreads reviews01:45:02 Ou...2025-02-021h 45

Licensed Poetics29. Do We Still Like This Neil Gaiman Book? ft. Ivy XuSound expert Ivy Xu joins BFL for a book club episode on The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. Previously, Ivy collaborated with LP on ‘A Literary Podcast Origin Story’ for All The Best podcast by FBi Radio, and she brings her experience in video game audio to her book club insights. BFL has read this book before, does she still love it on the second read? Disclaimer: this episode was recorded in December 2024 - sorry for the clickbait :D Find Ivy here Support LP here Chapters 00:00 Music 01:07 Ivy intro 2025-01-191h 16

Licensed Poetics28. Reacting to One Star Reviews of Our Favourite Books Because We’re Wankers I mean WritersDiscussing wanker aesthetics and toxic soft boys, LP opens the first episode of 2025 by firmly positioning the itself as the book podcast for writers. BFL followed up on end-of-year promises to read Nick Hornby and Murakami, whereas Derek shares his love for music references in literature. Then, both are very outraged by reviews attacking their favourite books on Goodreads. Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee! Link 00:00 Music 01:58 Remote Recording Setup 04:36 Table of Contents 05:34 Barnes and Noble and other DC bookshops 09:43 Librarie Avant-Garde in Nanjing, China 2025-01-051h 37

Licensed Poetics27. Reading Wrapped 2024! Our Favourite Books of the Year ft. Mildly Aggressive BloopersUse the Chapters to navigate this episode! It's the end of 2024, Derek and BFL look back on their year of books and art. Derek drops some opinions about Colleen Hoover and Murakami that will offend most people in the world. BFL talks about a hormone-induced nervous breakdown and (surprisingly) passes a Turing test. Thank you for your support this year! link Works mentioned Convenience Store Woman by Sayaka Murata My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh Passing by Nella Larsen 2024-12-221h 24

Licensed Poetics26. Sexual Preferences and MPDGs: Bookclub on Breakfast at Tiffany’sThis week BFL and Derek read a classic American novel by Truman Capote. It’s a very writerly novel, so of course the hosts both loved it. BFL also dishes out some strong opinions about a famous romance novel, meanwhile Derek’s epic musical fail can be forgiven because he’s just moved countries. Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee! Link here Chapters 00:00 Music 01:12 Why Derek picked this book 06:30 Let him ride me anywhere 08:32 book club no spoiler 24:37 book club spoiler 2024-12-0850 min

Licensed Poetics25. This Murakami Book is Literally So Pointless: Quotes Off II + Angela WuBFL and Derek face off in an epic game of Quotes Off: how well do they actually know their favourite books? Also included in this episode is some snippets of conversation with Angela Wu, a talented comic artist based in Singapore. If you are looking for recommendations to get into comic books and graphic novels, look no further! Follow Angela on Instagram @li_vermin_il Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee! Link here Chapters 00:00 Music 00:40 Derek’s turn Hiruka Murakami 23:53 BF...2024-11-2458 min

Licensed Poetics24. Quotes Off: How Well Do We Know Our Fave Books? + Bookclub ft. Marlene BaquiranBFL claims to love The Catcher in the Rye. Derek claims to love Community by Dan Harmon. But can they identify lines from the book/show? Or have they been pretending to be fans this entire time? Also, Marlene returns for another bookclub about a woman falling down a hole. The Hole by Hiroko Oyamada is the best book for unemployed people! Collab with All The Best by FBi Radio ‘A Literary Podcast Origin Story’ Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee! Read Marlene’s Substack here Chapters 00:00 Music ...2024-11-101h 07

All The BestLicensed PoeticsThis week, a podcast fiction story that examines the media industry and an interview about the artistic process behind it. B Fung-Ling and Derek Dao are the hosts of the Licensed Poetics podcast and extremely passionate about supporting emerging artists. All The Best Exec Producer Phoebe Adler-Ryan sat down with the duo to talk about the story they created for us and their artistic process delving into audio fiction for the first time. A Literary Podcast Origin Story Two literary critics are tasked with writing a b...2024-11-0531 min

Licensed Poetics23. Our Problematic Fave Books and Flat is Wack ft. Eric JiangBFL read his poem during lockdown and has wanted to meet him ever since - it’s the incredible Chinese Australian poet Eric Jiang! In this very spicy episode, Derek talks about ‘tickling the yellow’ and his 4am emergency book buying advice; BFL categorises some of her favourites books into Incest, Racism, and Misogyny; and Eric shares his very hot take on poetry readings. Stick around for the blooper at the end! Find Eric @squeric_ and https://ercjng.tumblr.com/ Support Licensed Poetics on Buy Me a Coffee! Chapters 00:00 Music 01:0...2024-10-2759 min

Licensed Poetics22. Terrible British Accent Ruined This Audiobook (Sorry But Do Better Srsly) ft. Angela WuThis week, BFL chats with Angela Wu, a comic artist based in Singapore! We hit you with Hamilton horror stories, opinions on Lord Andy (Andrew Lloyd Webber), Phantom of the Opera, and Ursula K Le Guin! Angela is contesting Derek’s title as LP’s resident TV person with her riveting review of the Australian show Wolf Like Me. BFL announces her latest on-screen crush. Find Angela on Instagram @li_vermin_il Support Licensed Poetics! Link Works mentioned Hamilton by Lin-Manuel Miranda Hamilton animatics by szin on YouTube Ph...2024-10-1346 min

Licensed Poetics21. A Five Star Read! Bookclub on Convenience Store Woman ft. Marlene BaquiranIn this Singapore edition of Licensed Poetics book club, BFL and Marlene discuss Convenience Store Woman by Sayaka Murata, the perfect book for misfits, newbie readers and experienced readers! In the new section LP story time, BFL shares a bookish wedding she went to! Marlene has found the literary scene in SG already? Read Marlene’s Substack: Link Support LP on Buy Me a Coffee! Link Theophilus Kwek (Singaporean poet) Chapters 00:00 Music 02:54 Marlene bio 04:12 BFL story time 13:18 Marlene story time 21:29 Convenience St...2024-09-291h 01

Licensed Poetics20. Maybe the Real ‘Haberfield’ is the Creative Friends We Made Along the Way ft. Izzie Conti and Max PinnegarThe makers of the indie short film Looking For Haberfield sit down with Licensed Poetics and talk about their process. Also, they answer one of Derek’s burning questions: what did he miss out on by not going to film school? Follow the film @lookingforhaberfield Support Licensed Poetics on Buy Me a Coffee! Books Mentioned White Nights by Fyodor Dostoevsky Gilmore Girls (TV) Cleopatra and Frankenstein by Coco Mellors Araby by James Joyce On Earth We’re Brie...2024-09-1556 min

Licensed Poetics19. Honest Review of Ocean Vuong ft. All The Best Podcast!You know you’ve found a literary nerd podcast when the hosts prefer reading the script over watching the play/film. Licensed Poetics is collaborating with All The Best Podcast! Phoebe and Isabella share their reading update and how they get involved with FBi radio. BFL and Derek are writing a story for All The Best! Stay tuned! Guests: Phoebe Adler-Ryan, Isabella Lee Follow All The Best on Instagram @allthebestradio Follow LP on Instagram @licensedpoetics Buy Me a Coffee! click here Books Mentioned On Earth We’re Briefly Gorgeous by Ocean Vuon...2024-09-0157 min

Licensed Poetics18. How to Get into Poetry: Don’t Be Scared! ft. Tina HuangThis episode is perfect for literary nerds. Writer Tina Huang chats to BFL about lowering the perceived entry requirement to poetry, her publish writing, and glaciers in New Zealand! Follow Tina on Instagram @tennisjock http://tinahuang.com.au/ Follow LP on Instagram @licensedpoetics Buy me a coffee! link Tina's work On the Verge https://www.tinahuang.com.au/writing/on-the-verge Phantom feelings https://meanjin.com.au/fiction/phantom-feelings/ Books mentioned Passing by Nella Larsen Peter...2024-08-1855 min

Licensed Poetics17. She does WHAT to self-destruct? Bookclub on My Year of Rest and RelaxationLP bookclub returns! Interim host Derek chats to BFL about My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh, the biggest title in the very popular unhinged women literary fiction genre. One host loved this book, the other not so much. Does it have anything to do with how self-destructive they are? Things get a little personal. Buy Me a coffee! link here Follow LP on Instagram @licensedpoetics Books mentioned Big Swiss by Jen Beagin Fleabag (TV) Girls (TV) Xxx At the end of the...2024-08-041h 07

Licensed Poetics16. Booking this Job Cured My Depression ft. Eva Chen from Marvel's Shang-Chi :)A real Hollywood star joins LP in the studio!! Eva Chen talks to BFL and Derek about acting, auditioning, improv, standup, and her experience working on set for Marvel's Shang-Chi! BFL met her at a reading event and has since been convinced that actors should always do the reading, never the writers. This is also Derek's first episode as LP's interim host. Exciting! Find Eva on Instagram @eva0765 Buy Me a Coffee! buymeacoffee.com/licensedpoetics Books mentioned The Handmaiden by Park Chan-Wook (film) Prophet Song by Paul Lynch 2024-07-2156 min

Licensed Poetics15. I Love Meaning! A Special Episode ft. LP friendsLP is going out-of-studio! In this very special episode recorded between Shanghai and the Blue Mountains, a few recurring guests and new voices share their recent reads! We talk about a book that should have remained a Twitter feed instead of being published, Derek's penchant for disappearing because he's totally fictional, and the fact that meaning is awesome and Abby loves it. Guests in order of appearance: Cady, Marlene, Eezu, Maja, Derek, Abby Marlene's substack https://marlenejo.substack.com/ Find everyone on LP's Insta @licensedpoetics Buy me a coffee! https://buymeacoffee...2024-07-0755 min

Licensed Poetics14. LP Bookclub! Of Boobs and Trees: The Vegetarian ft. Derek Dao and Anya VallentinThe first ever Licensed Poetics book club is a roaring success. Recurring guests Anya and Derek join BFL in the studio to discuss The Vegetarian by South Korean writer Han Kang, winner of the Man Booker Prize. This stunningly original book asks important questions: what does the pursuit of art justify? What takes away women’s autonomy? What type of tree would you like to be? Anya: @lasagnevallentin Derek: @daonationspls Follow LP on Instagram @licensedpoetics Buy Me a Coffee: buymeacoffee.com/licensedpoetics Books mentioned Giovanni's Room by Ja...2024-06-231h 10

Licensed Poetics13. I’m Reading This Classic Novel so I Can Say I Have Read it ft. Joseph Hathaway-WilsonIn BFL's first episode since going solo, she delivers a personal message. Then, she and the guest Joe, a wonderful writer and journalist, delve into In the Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado, discussing perspective and narrative voice. Joe then shares his experience organising grassroots arts initiative like the live music and poetry hub Debaser Events. BFL dreams about being a historian. Follow Joe on Instagram @joehwilson Follow LP on Instagram @licensedpoetics Buy Me a Coffee! buymeacoffee.com/licensedpoetics Books Mentioned In the Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado 2024-06-0953 min

Licensed Poetics12. Naming Kitchen Tools After Your Fave Writers ft. Ying ChinAngelic harp music opens a very special episode - Achim’s last as the host of Licensed Poetics. Ying, a dear friend of LP’s, is a spoken word poet and musician. She joins LP in the studio to discuss discovering your inner artist and activist, showing up for what’s beautiful, and naming your instruments (or in BFL’s case, her rolling pin) after your favourite artist. Books mentioned Politics and the English Language by George Orwell Dearly by Margret Atwood The Sandman by Neil Gaiman The Flame by Leona...2024-05-2654 min

Licensed Poetics11. Dealing with Butthurt Artists as an Editor or Critic ft. Claire CaoBFL giddily chats with Claire, a writer whose work she has admired for some time, about reading widely, editing fiction, and note-taking for TV. This episode is a must-listen for any aspiring artists out there. Also, please do not be butthurt if an editor makes a suggestion or a critic writes a negative review. Wow. Follow Claire on insta @clairecao https://clairecao.com.au Follow LP on insta @licensedpoetics Books mentioned Ready Player One by Ernest Cline Happening by Annie Ernaux Simple Passion by Annie...2024-05-1257 min

Licensed Poetics10. Take Your Inner Artist on a Date ft. Malena FioritoThis week, Licensed Poetics is joined by Malena, a wonderful Argentinian reader, writer, and songwriter. They talk about a famous Australian book about parent-children relationship, before BFL discusses misogyny in science fiction. Malena shares the book that she carries in her bag everywhere, and talks about being an artist as a way of life. Find Malena on Instagram @malenafiorito and @nopiensoperoexisto Follow Licensed Poetics on Instagram @licensedpoetics Books mentioned Cold Enough For Snow by Jessica Au The Three Body Problem by Cixin Liu Women Who Run with...2024-04-2855 min

Licensed Poetics9. Heal Before You Write: No More Trauma Porn ft. Vonne PatiagIncredibly Accomplished Filmmaker Vonne Patiag sits down with Licensed Poetics to talk about the film industry, writing on commission, and having a strong business background as a creative. Achim received Stephanie Niu’s chapbook all the way from America, and BFL finally read The Three Body Problem by Cixin Liu! Find Vonne on Instagram @vonnepat www.vonnepatiag.com Follow Licensed Poetics on Instagram @licensedpoetics Works and artists mentioned Survived By by Stephanie Niu The Three Body Problem by Cixin Liu Tales from the Café by Tos...2024-04-141h 03

Licensed Poetics8. ROI: Return On Imagination ft. Yurui ZiAchim triumphantly returns from holiday and brings with him a 17yo LinkedIn celebrity and entrepreneur prodigy who loves reading, Yurui Zi. He then drops his take on The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K, while BFL disagrees (yet again) with Goodreads reviewers on Piranesi by Susanna Clarke. Yurui bravely states his preference for non-fiction over fiction in the same room as Achim and BFL who are both avid fiction readers. Before the conversation turns into a fistfight, they find some common ground talking about Dune, stoicism, and high school English classes. Follow us on Instagram @licensedpoetics 2024-03-3151 min

Licensed Poetics7. BetterHelp Should Have Sponsored This Episode ft. Derek DaoBFL chats with Licensed Poetics Dear Friend Derek Dao about reading, writing, screenwriting, and if BFL needs therapy. How are TV scenes created? Why does movie-style writing NOT work for novels? When will Derek sell his million dollar story idea about being stuck in an endless tunnel? Listen and find out. Find Derek https://judeandpeter.substack.com/ Follow us on Instagram @licensedpoetics Chapters 00:00 Music 00:46 Derek intro 03:06 BFL reading update 13:15 Derek reading update 24:41 What Derek and BFL write 32:28 Sad writers 2024-03-1755 min

Licensed Poetics6. Listening to Explicit Audiobooks While Driving ft. Anya Vallentin and Emily JamesIn this book-ish and film-ish episode, BFL chats with Emily and Anya, both wonderful writers and filmmakers, about Poor Things starring Emma Stone and Mark Ruffalo, boring Hemingway, alienated poetry, and incredibly explicit audiobook adventures. The guests then share how they got started with filmmaking, before discussing the statement - the book is always better. Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:36 How BFL met the guests 01:58 BFL reading update 04:07 Emily reading update 13:49 Anya reading update 27:03 Guest bios 28:25 Anya’s recent project 34:11 Emily’s recent project 2024-03-0358 min

Licensed Poetics5. This Guest Made Achim Cry? ft. Rachael WilliamsAs Achim and BFL set off on the perilous journey of comparing themselves to prodigy writers, the wonderful guest Rachael fangirls over her favourite slam poet. Then, Rach drops her iconic performance of her slam poetry piece, ‘Poem for the boys’. To no one’s surprise, Achim got emotional. Things got messy. Chapters 00:00 Music 00:25 Introducing Rachael 01:28 Achim update 13:20 BFL update 23:17 Rachael update 27:50 Section II start 33:15 Content warning 33:30 ‘Poem for the boys’ performance Books Mentioned 2024-02-1845 min

Licensed Poetics4. The First Ever Alliteration: Goo-Goo-Ga-Ga ft. Marlene Baquiran'Any type of conversation is a great vehicle for change.' In this episode, we are joined by writer Marlene Baquiran. Following some devastating and hilarious book reviews, we explore how a well-crafted opening hook prevents the reader from putting down a piece of writing. Marlene, Achim, and BFL each draw from their own writing and editing experience. Finally, how do we effect change and become more empathetic as a writer? Marlene also shows her stand. ---Chapters--- 00:00 Intro 00:59 Reading updates 02:15 Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman 03:59 The Unwomanly Face of...2024-02-0453 min

Licensed Poetics3. 2023 Reading Wrapped! Life-changing Books & Insufferable Books! ft. CadyRevealing our most adored, hated, and traumatising books of the year! We went through a thorough list of fantastical, socialist and ArCadyan books with unsolicited but highly personal and emotional verdicts! What’s your favourite read in 2023? Do you have any objections to our reviews?? Let us know in the comments! ---Timestamps--- 00:00 Introducing Cady 02:17 How many books did you read/DNF this year 10:27 How many Chinese books did you read 13:52 Which country did you read from the most (Author’s country of origin) 19:22 What is your most/ least...2024-01-211h 09

Licensed Poetics2. In Empathy We are Luu-minescent ft. Annabella Luu and Antoinette Luu'I want to write a poem for her because I feel like she deserves it.' In this episode, we are joined by our guest features Annabella & Antoinette Luu, resonating with their intimate and captivating perspectives of being a storyteller and their empathy for people they hold close. We transform the recording studio into a contemplative chamber on what it means to be a writer and what makes it beautiful. ---Chapters--- 00:00 Intro 00:50 Recent reads 28:00 Conversation with Annabella& Antoinette 32:05 On Narratives of writing 39:00 On Fantasy and M...2024-01-0745 min

Licensed Poetics1. Chasing the Niu-est Waves ft. Stephanie Niu'I wonder how my body knows what it feels like to fly - I think it’s because of swimming.' In the very first episode of Licensed Poetics, hosts Fung-Ling and Achim dive into a sea of captivating quotes and engaging conversations, joined by our guest feature Stephanie Niu. We even discover a mystifying connection between Steph and Achim?! Steph then expands her dreamscape by reading one of her latest pieces that hasn’t been shared before. ---Sections--- 00:00 Intro 00:40 Reading Updates 17:59 Conversation with...2023-12-2438 min