Shows
Circle HoldingCircles as a Path to Personal Transformation with Rob Smith
In this interview Rob and Julia discussed:
• Attended his first circle during lockdown for support
• Had transferable skills from being a personal trainer, knew how to give person space to speak
• Co-facilitates the circle at Uncommon Man – bring different skills and give each other support e.g. debriefing and planning
• Also has support through Whatsapp group with other men’s circle facilitators
• Charges for men’s monthly circle and a lot of this goes back into promoting sessions, including having a videographer there for marketing e.g. clips of breathwork to demystify what happens at the circle
• For venues, think of spaces li...2025-07-2752 min
Circle HoldingHow are you? Framing Your Questions for Open Hearted Answers with Julia and TessaFraming Your Questions for Open Hearted Answers
In this episode Julia & Tessa talk about how to create space for examining feelings:
Alternatives to "how are you" to create space for heart led conversation
Creating questions that lead to sharing stories
The value of lightness and humour
Starting shallow, going deep
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon ([https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/]
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/))
Support our podcast. If you...2025-07-2314 min
Circle HoldingPoetry as a Gateway to Free Expression with Kate Clanchy MBE
Kate Clanchy – Writer and Teacher https://kateclanchy.com/
How to Grow Your Own Poem
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon ([https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/]
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/))
Support our podcast. If you love the conversations and would love for us to create a third series you can support our podcast by donating £5, £10 or any other amount:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/spread-stories-of-communities-building-circles-of-hope/
To learn more about facili...2025-07-2036 min
Circle HoldingTaking Circle on Retreat: Cultivating Connection
In this episode, Tessa and Julia talked about how circle time can utilise the special environment of a retreat to deepen practices and sharing. They give some examples of where circle was used well and where it wasn't used at all.
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles here:
https://www.circleholding.org/book
Support our podcast. If you love the conversations and would love for us to create a fourth series you can support our podcast by donating £5, £10 or any other amount:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/sp...2025-07-1623 min
Circle HoldingBoys, Masculinity & Rites of Passage with Davis J WilliamsWhat makes a man?
The focus of this episode is masculinity and the road to adulthood for young men. How do we take lessons from cultures that honour rites of passage and make that relevant to young men in the UK.
Who is helping our young boys to become men? Davis talks about how he has brought communities together to support vulnerable and at risk young men and boys.
Davis J. Williams is a world-class youth mentor, author of seven transformative books, and the powerhouse behind Manhood Academy Global—a BAFTA-nominated charity that’s reshaping how...2025-07-1347 min
Circle HoldingWhich Is For You? An Open or Closed Talking Circle with Julia and Tessa
In this conversation, Tessa and Julia talked about what open and closed circles are, what the benefits are and what you might consider when setting them up. Enjoy!
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon ([https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/]
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/))
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon ([https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/]
(https://www.amazon.co...2025-07-1018 min
Circle HoldingMaking Space for Difficult Conversations with Ariel KahnCreating Interfaith Circles
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon ([https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/]
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/))
In our conversation Ariel talked about the Arab Israeli Book Club – here’s a guardian review from when it all started, back in 2010:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2010/feb/08/radical-reading-israeli-arab-book-club
This approach to creating shared cultural conversations across boundaries was inspired by my research for my novel, Raising Sparks. Lebanese novelist Han Al Shaykh named it in a new York Times Inte...2025-07-0650 min
Circle HoldingHighlights and Reflections on Series 2: Our Favourite Bits! with Julia and Tessa
In this episode, Tessa and Julia shared their highlights of the past 14 episodes including:
the power of circles with children and young people (Roy Leighton, Sophie King-Hill and Nellie Harden)
the importance of embodiment in talking circles for the participants and as a circle facilitator (Henika Patel and Marta Fabregat)
the spectrum of circles from in your living room to an international, decades-old organisation (Nicky Yazbeck and Mike Irwin)
the gift of being authentic as a group facilitator rather than being 100% perfect or professional!
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order...2025-03-1912 min
Circle HoldingWorking with Families: Meeting Children's Needs So They Can Thrive with Nellie Harden
In this episode, Tessa and Nellie (https://www.nellieharden.com/) talk about:
• Circles show up in all sorts of places like music groups and choirs
• Growth happens in relationship, not isolation, which makes circles perfect for change
• Modern life with devices and social media makes it hard for families to do active listening with each other
• Get clarity about your child’s learning language so your message gets through e.g. pictures, words, movement
• Playing loud music really helped to prepare the 12-18 year olds for listening later – think of your attendees’ nee...2025-03-0743 min
Circle HoldingOnline vs In Person Circle: Which One Do I Choose?with Julia and Tessa
In this episode, Julia and Tessa covered:
The benefits of both online and in person circles
The challenges of online and additional guidelines you might put into place
The additional work that an in person circle might involve in setting up the physical space
Examples of how both online and in person circles have worked with different demographics.
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/)
Support our podcast. If...2025-03-0524 min
Circle HoldingSharing Sensuality in Circle with Henika Patel
To learn more about facilitating circles you can join one of our trainings:
https://www.circleholding.org
Circle Holding Fundamentals - introductory 3 hour workshop
https://www.circleholding.org/circle-fundamentals
USE CODE POD10 to get your exclusive 10% discount on Circle Holding Fundamentals
In this episode, Julia and Henika https://schoolofsensualarts.co.uk/ talked about:
How she transformed from a lawyer into a facilitator of sensual arts after realising she was disconnected from her body
Circle time was a catalyst for the journey: it created a space to talk about taboo topics without shame
Her ‘Shakti Circle’ focuses on t...2025-02-2841 min
Circle HoldingSex Education and Youth Advocacy Through Circle with Sophie King-Hill
Exclusive podcast 20% discount on our London training - 8 & 9 March 2025
Use the code POD20 when you check out.
Circle Holding Non-Residential Retreat - London
https://www.circleholding.org/weekend-retreat
Support our podcast. If you love the conversations and would love for us to create a third series you can support our podcast by donating £5, £10 or any other amount:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/spread-stories-of-communities-building-circles-of-hope/
In this episode, Julia Davis spoke to Dr Sophie King-Hill (https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/social-policy/departments/health-services-management-centre/staff/profile.aspx?ReferenceId=170453) talked about:
Beliefs around sexuality and youth lead to...2025-02-2142 min
Circle HoldingPeace Circles in Schools with Roy LeightonTransforming Conflict into Maturity
Exclusive podcast 20% discount on our London training - 8 & 9 March 2025
Use the code POD20 when you check out.
Circle Holding Non-Residential Retreat - London
https://www.circleholding.org/weekend-retreat
In this episode, Tessa Venuti Sanderson and Roy Leighton (https://www.independentthinking.co.uk/speakers/roy-leighton/) talked about:
**For data on the impact of circles at Carr Manor School go to: **www.circleholding.org/podcast-episode-24
His involvement in Peace Circles being rooted in his childhood with Adverse Childhood Events
How circles can increase inclusion and belonging in schools – in 7 years only 7 days of exclusion ac...2025-02-1443 min
Circle HoldingYoga Nidra: A Deep Relaxation Technique for Settling in Circle
In this episode, Tessa and Julia discussed the technique of Yoga Nidra relaxations within circle time: (see FREE yoga nidra tracks below)
Useful settling technique in circle
Can be used for all different audiences (e.g. pregnancy, kids, perimenopause, fatigue
The participants can lie down or sit for this technique and should be as comfortable as possible
The facilitator stays sitting and alert to deliver the nidra - for the training you do not need to be a yoga teacher
There are different components in a nidra including body mapping, opposite qualities, setting an intention and themes can...2025-02-1213 min
Circle HoldingListening as Compassionate Leadership with Jenny BurrellBringing Nuance into Women's Fitness
In this episode, Tessa and Jenny Burrell (https://www.burrelleducation.com/) covered:
Learning the value of silence
How online circles can be just as powerful as in person ones but guidelines may need to be slightly different
You might think group coaching is about really cool questions but it's mostly about listening
The difference between feedback and reflection in circle
As group facilitators or circle holders we can be human rather than perfect and this makes us into more compassionate leaders
and much more!
Get exclusive podcast 20% discount on our London training...2025-02-0734 min
Circle HoldingPart 2: The Nuts and Bolts of Circle Facilitation with Mike Irwin
In this episode with Mike Irwin (michaelirwin.org), he and Julia discussed:
• It’s okay as a facilitator to be learning and not be perfect! People are looking for authenticity and not super-confident
• Your nervousness can be a gift to the nervous attendees
• The first part of starting the circle is to get present yourself as a facilitator
• You can start with a centring question e.g. ‘What’s preventing me from feeling comfortable here?’ or ‘What do I want to feel like at the end of the session?’
• As important aspect of guidelines is to open up the requirements around co...2025-01-3127 min
Circle HoldingStarting Your CircleLessons learned from Finchley Women's Circle
In this episode, Tessa Venuti Sanderson ask Julia Davis about her most recent circle, which is six months old. They cover who the circle was for, charging, venue considerations and much more.
Get 20% discount on our London training - 8 & 9 March 2025
Use the code POD20 when you check out.
Circle Holding Non-Residential Retreat - London
https://www.circleholding.org/weekend-retreat
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking...2025-01-3025 min
Circle HoldingRunning Your Circle At Home (and Plant Medicine) with Nicky Yazbeck
Exclusive podcast 20% discount on our London training - 8 & 9 March 2025
Use the code POD20 when you check out.
Circle Holding Non-Residential Retreat - London
https://www.circleholding.org/weekend-retreat
In this episode with Nicky Yazbeck (https://nickyyyoga.com/) and Julia, they covered:
• How Nicky holds a women’s circle for those who’ve experienced plant medicine
• Ayahuasca is a serious plant medicine and need to prepare through clean diet and other preparations
• A circle is important for creating a container for the experience
• There is a WhatsApp group important for the integration of what came up after taking the plant me...2025-01-2436 min
Circle HoldingEmbodied Listening: Using Focusing as a Technique in Circle with Marta Fabregat
For the video interview and transcript, go to https://www.circleholding.org/podcast-episode-19
In this interview with Marta Fabregat (https://martafabregat.com/), we covered:
How the practice of Focusing works
Focusing is listening from the body, but can’t separate the experience from the environment
Focusing is about the art of living rather than a method or technique
Marta and Tessa both share a short focusing practice
Focusing creates a pause and stillness through being more fully present and honouring your experience
With practice, it becomes natural to keep company with what’s happening internally all the...2025-01-1711 min
Circle HoldingTo Share or Not Share Expertise in Circle with Julia and Tessa
A common question is trainings is how to balance the role of facilitator and the role of being an expert within a workshop context, in which a talking circle will be one activity. For example, if you run a menopause workshop and teach the first part, how will you shift to a sharing circle where everyone doesn't just turn to you for answers? How do you create an atmosphere where people feel empowered to share their experience? Julia and Tessa share some reflections and tips on how to manage this issue of expertise and power dynamics.
Get 20...2025-01-1519 min
Circle HoldingPart 1: Diversity and Inclusion in Circle with Mike Irwin of Mankind Project
In this episode with Mike Irwin (https://mankindprojectuki.org/circles), he and Julia discussed:
the evolution of men's groups and GBTQ+ groups
how to introduce ice breakers and discussion starters
circle as a conduit for emotional breakthrough
the breadth of development opportunities through circle in the corporate world
how men's circles have changed and are addressing current challenges
Mike read English Literature at the University of London and graduated with first class honours before studying coaching psychology at postgraduate level. Mike has over twenty-five years’ experience in mentoring and facilitating and has worked as a coach for ov...2025-01-1037 min
Circle HoldingNew Beginnings - An Antidote to New Year ResolutionsMaking a Circle for Winter Solstice and New Year
In this episode, Julia and Tessa talk about creating a circle to look back over the last year and forward to the year to come. This could be with a group of friends in your home or in a special class or workshop.
The flash paper mentioned is available from magic shops e.g. https://magicshop.co.uk/products/flash-paper-pro-quality-white?
Find more details about the Circle Holders Journey at https://www.circleholding.org/circle-holders-journey
In person trainings are available in London (non-residential) in March...2024-12-0117 minCircle HoldingThe Ups and Downs of Circle FacilitationHighlights of Series 1 plus Julia and Tessa's favourite and most challenging circles
In this final episode of Series 1 of the Circle Holding Podcast, Julia and Tessa reflect on what they learnt from the diverse circle facilitators who were interviewed. They also look back on their own experiences of being in circle and holding space, remembering magical moments and some challenging ones!
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/)
For a signed copy from...2024-10-2013 minCircle HoldingFrom Monastery to Participatory Democracy with Andy Paice
In this episode, Julia and Andy covered:
• Participatory democracy is about a deeper level of democracy .e.g Citizen’s assembly to listen to diverse voices and find common solutions
• Danger of spiritual bypassing when engaged in spiritual practices at the expense of everyday relationships in society
• ‘Deep democracy’ tries to draw inner voices into democratic process as microcosm of outer world
• Talking in circle ‘until the obvious arises’ leads to real solutions
• Facilitator balances aim of meeting with making people comfortable to take part
• Appreciative enquiry to use imagination through crafts or drawing so that people have chance to express themselves...2024-10-1636 minCircle HoldingA Labour of Love: Building a Circle Holding Non Profit with Becoming Mum's Liz Allum
In this episode with Liz Allum of Becoming Mums, we covered:
• The importance of having co-facilitators to support with the skills to read the room and create a permissive atmosphere
• How being clear about what your demographic needs is more important than what you want to do (and will help you get funding)
• Talking to existing organisations or projects that work with your demographic to see how they work and what gaps in provision there are so you’re not reinventing the wheel but creating allies
• The importance of paying artists a proper fee for their time in providing a creative...2024-10-1341 minCircle HoldingAre Circles Woo Woo? with Julia and TessaHippy? New Age? Or completely normal? It depends.
In this episode, we covered:
Talking circles are called by different names, including conversation circles, listening circles, sharing circles and groups (women's groups, men's groups, girl's groups)
Circle time can be very straight forward or contain lots of ceremony - it depends on the purpose and the demographic
Ceremony can be missing in many people's lives and be enriching
Having familiar words or practices (or rituals) can create a sense of safety and familiarity that helps settle people's nervous systems
There's space for all sorts of different circles
If you're...2024-10-0911 minCircle HoldingSeparation, Ordeal, Return: Creating Men's Circles with Lee Stegels
In this episode, Julia and Lee covered:
• How men are often attracted to circle when they’re at crisis point
• The application process for the closed group after being part of an open one
• The structure of the meeting allows deep sharings to happen: ‘freedom within form’
• How he provides several opportunities to talk, with longer each time for more depth
• Silence can be part of a person’s allotted time
• Structure, intention and timeframe are three important aspects to consider
• Rites of passage for men include grief and facing fear
• Working with 14-16 year old boys involves matching then with a ‘man of trus...2024-10-0630 minCircle HoldingLet's talk MONEY with Julia and TessaShould talking circles be free, by donation or be paid for?
In this episode, Julia and Tessa covered:
The hidden costs and time spent in running a talking circle
Avoiding facilitator burnout by being compensated for your time
Different models for running a listening circle
Getting funding to make the circle free for participants to attend
Experiences of trying to run a circle by donation
You can pre-order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/)
For a signed copy from Independent Book Store West...2024-10-0217 min
Life - An Inside JobInside shame with Julia Davis and Tessa Venuti SandersonAccording to Brenee Brown, shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging—something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.In this episode were talking about how listening circles can help to reduce the amount of shame we feel. How being witnessed can help us to accept and find love for ourselves. We also talk about how shame shows up for professional space holders, and how we can manage these difficult feelings in our work. My guest...2024-10-011h 08Circle HoldingChildren's Circles and Rites of Passage with Jane Bennett
In this episode with Jane Bennett, we covered:
• How a circle format can work well for sensitive topics in general and to differentiate it from puberty lessons in school in particular
• We talked about how having a conversation before the circle can help manage expectations of what will happen
• How circle time can lessen feelings of shame or embarrassment and increase positivity around taboo subjects
• When crafts or other ways of keeping hands and eyes busy can be advantageous
• Why the process of normalising talking about difficult subjects is so important and how circle facilitators achieve that
• How you adapt for th...2024-09-2934 minCircle HoldingStop interrupting! Attunement and Reciprocity in Listening with Julia and Tessa
In this episode about listening with Julia and Tessa, we covered:
The importance of the listener being attuned and not having an agenda
How wonderful when listening is reciprocal and the listener isn’t trying to fix anything
The signs of someone not listening to you
How to do a Listening Partnership
The joy of a longer term Listening Partnership
That self-worth can grow as someone feels their voice is important
You can pre-order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/)
For a signed co...2024-09-2521 minCircle HoldingCircle as the Container for Transformational Breathwork with Benedict Beaumont
In this episode, Julia and Ben covered:
How breathwork can be transformation and does involve deep feelings and going to somone’s edge
How to find look for a breathwork facilitator
Why framing and felt sense are the building blocks for creating an effective and safely held breathwork circle
Creating a sense of belonging for your participants
Fun and ice breakers as a corridor to deeper feelings
You can find out more about Benedict and Breathing Space HERE
You can join the Breathing Space Community HERE
Get your free Start Your Circle Guide HERE
You ca...2024-09-2233 minCircle HoldingHow to Hold Space for Big Feelings and Big Personalities with Julia and TessaManaging big, raw feelings and diverse personalities.
In this episode, we look at the common fear of new circle facilitators around managing big, raw feelings and diverse personalities. We discuss the balance between all feelings being welcome and allowing time for everyone to speak, between people being they're authentic self whether they tend to talk (a lot) or be very quiet and encouraging everyone to speak.
You can order our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/)
For a signed copy from Independent Book Store...2024-09-1820 minCircle HoldingTeamwork Makes the Dream Work: The Joy of Collaboration with Red SchoolLearn how the Red School founders successfully collaborate in holding space
In this podcast, we aim to bring you insights into circle holding, whether you are an (aspiring) circle facilitator or attendee, through interviews with experienced circle holders and conversations between Julia and Tessa, the founders of Circle Holding.
This week's guests are Alexander Pope and Sjanie Hugo-Wurlitzer, the founders of Red School and authors of Wild Power and Wise Power, who are excellent space holders in their trainings. See what we covered in this episode below. You can find more about their menstruality work at https...2024-09-1539 minCircle HoldingWhat is Holding Space with Julia and TessaTaking responsibility for your group
In this episode we will be talking about the role of the circle facilitator.
When we talk to people about our book we are often asked the question: What is circle holding or holding space?
When we dreamed up the title of the book we knew exactly we wanted a step-by-step approach as you can see from the subtitle: "A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles" clarified our intention.
Included in this overview is the following:
*It is about having someone who takes responsibility for the space
...2024-09-1117 minCircle HoldingRadical Empathy Through Sharing Stories with Narrative 4's Lee KeylockHow the Story Exchange Method Brings Communities Together
In this episode, Julia talks to Lee Keylock of Narrative 4 and they covered:
Storytelling around controversial topics build community through revealing nuance
How exactly Narrative 4’s Story Exchange works through experiencing radical empathy in circle
That empathy starts with the courage and generosity to try to listen
Hearing your story told by someone else lets you see it in a new light
Facilitation is key to handle the emotional space and a co-facilitator helps keep the flow going
That there is nothing soft about the skill of facilitation and it im...2024-09-0835 minCircle HoldingWhat is a Circle? with Julia and TessaUnpacking what a talking circle is and how it's different from other group facilitation
In this podcast, we bring you insights into circle holding, whether you are an (aspiring) circle facilitator or attendee, through interviews with experienced circle holders and conversations between Julia and Tessa, the founders of Circle Holding.
Our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles is available at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/
Find details of the next free mini training and Q&A at https://www.circleholding.org and all our upcoming trainings.
In...2024-09-0414 minCircle HoldingOvercoming Imposter Syndrome & Stepping Into Group Facilitation with Kate Codrington
In this podcast, we bring you insights into circle holding, whether you are an (aspiring) circle facilitator or attendee, through interviews with experienced circle holders and conversations between Julia and Tessa, the founders of Circle Holding.
This week's guest is Kate Codrington, the author of the Second Spring and facilitator of circles as part of workshops and retreats around perimenopause. See what we covered in this episode below. You can find her and lots of resources at https://www.katecodrington.co.uk/
This episode will be reassuring for new circle facilitators and get lots of...2024-09-0130 minCircle HoldingWho we are - Our favourite talking circles with Julia and TessaAnd why we wrote a book about talking circles
In this podcast, we bring you insights into circle holding, whether you are an (aspiring) circle facilitator or attendee, through interviews with experienced circle holders and conversations between Julia and Tessa, the founders of Circle Holding.
Our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles is available at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/
Find details of the next free mini training and Q&A at https://www.circleholding.org and all our upcoming trainings.
In this episode, Julia and Tessa...2024-09-0112 minCircle HoldingTrailer for the Circle Holding podcastWith excerpts from guest speakers
The first episode of the Circle Holding Podcast dropped on 1st September 2024..
You can orderr our book Circle Holding: A Practical Guide to Facilitating Talking Circles on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circle-Holding-Practical-Facilitating-Talking/dp/1805013157/)
To learn more about facilitating circles you can join one of our trainings:
https://www.circleholding.org
Circle Holding Fundamentals - introductory 3 hour workshop
https://www.circleholding.org/circle-fundamentals
Circle Holding Facilitator Training - 3 month training
https://www.circleholding.org/circle-holders-journey
Circle Holding Book Club - a fun way to work through the exercises
https...2024-07-0202 min