Shows
Pyramid to CirclesWorking with the polarities at play in a group, w/Remko BerkhoutRemko has been coaching and facilitating multicultural and highly challenging contexts in the civil society for the last 2 decades.
His professional journey has taken him from his native city of Rotterdam to Bangadesh, India and Mozambique, working in various advisory and leadership positions for international NGOs and their networks of partners. Today, as a senior Integral Facilitator, Master Coach as a consultant, he brings over two decades of civil society experience in his coaching and facilitation practice to support executive leadership teams and their organizations across the globe. His approach is based on the principles that: 1/ any i...2023-10-0647 min
Pyramid to CirclesWorking beneath the surface - W/ Diane Musho HamiltonIn this episode, I have the pleasure to interview Diane Musho Hamilton, a person I deeply respect and consider as one of my biggest masters. She shares how the 2 polarities Sameness and Otherness affect group dynamics at the deepest level, how to and how to work with them in order to progress in consciousness and in creativity.
Diane Musho Hamilton is an award-winning mediator and a teacher of Zen meditation. She received dharma transmission from Genpo Merzel Roshi in 2006. Diane served as the Director of Dispute Resolution for the Utah Judiciary from 1994 - 1999, mediating many kinds of ma...2023-09-0744 min
Pyramid to CirclesThe science of consciousness, w/ Marilyn Schlitz“It is not the world outside us that has created the greatest problems facing civilization (or organizations), but our own limited consciousness. ” In this episode, I interview Marilyn Schlitz, an acclaimed social anthropologist, consciousness researcher and award-winning author. Marilyn has published the award-winning film “Death makes life possible” with Deepak Chopra, and is the CEO/President Emeritus at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. In our conversation we discuss the importance of recognizing worldviews and the necessity for leaders to learn how to accept, address and integrate those. Marilyn also shares about her unique and cutting-edge scientific researches in the field of...2023-06-131h 14
Pyramid to CirclesLiberating Structures w/Keith McCandlessThis episode is specially for Facilitators and Leaders who want to enable a team or a group of people to reach a new level of outcome with minimal energy or resources. I really enjoyed Keith energy and mastery. Mickael
Unwittingly, the conventional structures used to organize how people routinely work together stifle inclusion and engagement. Liberating Structures are these new practices that liberate people's creativity, energy and engagement at work. Keith is the co-author of The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures – Simple Rules to Unleash a Culture of Innovation. In this very inspiring interview, he explains with ve...2023-05-1541 min
Pyramid to CirclesWhat is BCorp and how it transforms both your business model and company culture W/ Augustin BoulotB Corp is a movement that brings together thousands of companies worldwide and that seeks to transform the economy by demonstrating, through the achievements of the B Corp community, that it is possible to reconcile the profit motive (for profit) and the collective interest (for purpose). Their standards affect not only companies' business models and value chains, but also that drives a cultural transformation. You can not be exactly the same person in a B Corp. Their approach is an invitation for becoming more conscious and mindful of our ecosystems as companies, and also as people. In this episode, I...2023-04-2449 min
Pyramid to CirclesThe Inner Development Goals w/ Jan Artem HenrikssonJan Artem Henriksson is the Executive Director of the Inner Development Goals Initiative. He is also co-founder of Self Leaders - a Nordic leadership consultancy, senior faculty member at Stockholm School of Economics Executive Education, and a board member of Ekskaret Foundation.
In 2015, United Nations Sustainable Development Goals gave us a comprehensive plan for a sustainable world by 2030. There is a vision of what needs to happen, but progress along this vision has so far been disappointing.
We lack the inner capacity to deal with our increasingly complex environment and challenges. Fortunately, modern research shows t...2023-03-2141 min
Pyramid to CirclesSelf-Organisation for advanced learners, w/ Christiane Seuhs-SchoellerChristiane is a self-organization specialist, TED speaker, coach and an entrepreneur. She has been among the first to teach and implement Holacracy since 2009. Her journey has led her to address in a very deep way the People dimension of self-organization. In her new book called “New Stories of Love, Power and Purpose”, she invites us to understand our human potential and gives us some tools to unleash it. In this interview, she lays out some key distinctions that help me refine even deeper my understanding of what self organization means. In particular:
What does self-organization actually mean if you...2023-02-271h 16
Pyramid to Circles(In French) SAFE et Gouvernance Adaptative : quelle complémentarité? Avec Bruno Millero et Fabienne PouillieuteAu sein du groupe Orange, Fabienne et Bruno occupent chacun des fonctions managériales dans lesquelles ils sont au cœur de la transformation agile de l’entreprise. Tous les deux ont déployé et maîtrisent l’agilité à l’échelle (SAFE) et la Gouvernance Adaptative, une approche de l’auto-organisation inspirée de l’Holacracy et adaptée aux grandes entreprises. Dans cet épisode, ils partagent leur expérience de la complémentarité des 2 approches. Un épisode utile pour comprendre comment différents frameworks d’agilité de pilotage de grands projet complexes d’un côté, et d’agilité organisationnelle de l’autre...2023-02-0646 min
Pyramid to CirclesHolacracy and Leadership w/ Brian RobertsonBrian is the founder of Holacracy and of HolacracyOne, the company that supports the growth of Holacracy. He sees his work today as “allowing leaders to release the reins of personal power and persuasion into a trustworthy and explicit governance process”. In this episode he shares his profound vision of leadership. He also explains why and how working with tensions is essential to navigate complexity and introduces the new version of Holacracy, enabling a more adaptive integration in organizations. He also shares about his personal journey of self-transformation and his core values. A wonderful conversation with one of the thoug...2023-01-121h 05
Pyramid to CirclesAltered States of Consciousness and Leadership Growth, w/ Evolute InstituteIn this episode I break a taboo by sharing my personal experience of an altered state of consciousness through legal psychedelics and how it has deeply impacted me positively in my life and in my work. I interviewed Christopher Kabakis and Dmitrij Achelrod (PHD), co-founders of Evolute Institute, who present their purpose, approach and results with leaders.
Let me explain. We all know it, in an ever-more uncertain and brutal world, organizations need leaders able to embrace complexity and to find ways to move forward while creating positive impact by integrating what seems opposite, without being taken by...2022-12-2152 min
Pyramid to CirclesThe deep agile transformation of ICA (retail industry) w/ Marvin LiljegrenICA is the Sweden #1 supermarket chain, with over 23 000 employees, 1300 stores across the country, generating 100 Billion Euros of revenue. ICA has undertaken a very large agile transformation that has become a benchmark and a true inspiration for many companies in Sweden and all over Europe. The secret sauce of their success : make the transformation of matters of culture first, before any methods. Marvin Lilegren is the “Head of User Experience & Design” at ICA and has been instrumental at the core of this story. In this episode, he lays out the step by step approach and key success factors of the ICA’s a...2022-11-0757 min
Pyramid to Circles(In French) Comment faire de votre écoute un outil puissant d'accompagnement du changement? Avec Sébastien DupuisPolytechnicien, ayant travaillé 20 ans dans l'Internet dans la Silicon Valley, en Europe et en Chine, Sébastien a vécu un burn out qui l’a conduit à s’intéresser au rôle de l'ego et à l’importance de l’écoute dans les entreprises. Il a développé l’Écoute Progressive, une technique basée sur des principes d'humilité, de bienveillance et de confiance en l'humain, qu'il dévoile dans cet épisode
En 2019 Sébastien a créé Tirezio, un cabinet qui accompagne les organisations en forte croissance ou en transformation qui veulent soutenir le développement des individus à l’échelle mais n'ont pas forcément...2022-10-2038 min
Pyramid to CirclesHow a 170 years-old multinational company is radically transforming with self-management? w/ Pernilla WikmanPernilla Wikman is the VP, Head of Global Business at Telia, the leading Swedish Telco company. Based on her long personal exploration in the field of learning organizations, she has initiated in her division a deep culture transformation promoting self-managed and autonomous teams. In this episode she shares her experience, the results obtained, as well as very concrete insights on how to lead the change. In particular, she introduces the 5 transformational areas that volunteer teams are invited to explore : Why, Me, We, Focus and Self-Organization.
I have been truly inspired by this conversation, and by how Pernilla is...2022-10-0358 min
BE SMART, L'émissionBE SMART du vendredi 16 septembre 2022Vendredi 16 septembre 2022, BE SMART reçoit Mickael Drouard (cofondateur, Fabric) , Guillaume de Goÿs (Président, Aluminium France) , Julie Mazuet (responsable Entrepreneuriat, Force Femmes) et Juan Pirlot de Corbion (CEO, YouScribe)Hébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.2022-09-161h 00
Pyramid to CirclesMy key learnings after hosting 25 episodes of Pyramid to circles - w/Mickael DrouardIn this episode, I share some of the key learnings I had throughout the 1st season of Pyramid to circles, in particular what the term ‘Living Organization’ means for me, as well as the key leadership skills necessary for managers who lead a transformation towards empowerment, including Intelligence of the Self, Emotional Intelligence (a lot in there to say), and Polarities Management.
I would love to have your ideas and reaction on our LinkedIn page !2022-09-1419 min
Pyramid to CirclesThe steps to become a purpose-centric organization - W/ Patrick FransenPatrick Fransen is a Partner at Pebble Wave, a new type of consultancy whose goal is to incubate and invest in for-purpose start-ups. In this episode, Patrick explains why and how becoming a purpose-centric organization is a growth accelerator. He also introduces Pebble Wave’s 7-steps method to apply purpose centricity in all the company dimensions, including Culture, Ways of working, Business model, Strategy, Sales, Finance and People skills.2022-05-0957 min
Pyramid to CirclesHow to bring sustainability into leadership and culture transformation? W/ Claire CarréVery often, sustainability is addressed in the realm of “doing”: Indeed, individuals and organizations must react to the alarming data indicating the destruction of our living systems. But as we react, we are not yet in a creation mode, one that is truly innovative and inspired. For that, we need to experience that sustainability is also about “being”. It is about a shift of mindset inside yourself. Building a culture of sustainability in organizations means growing a new level of consciousness in which we belong to a greater system. Our guest Claire Carre (roseaux.dansants@gmail.com) brought to France the...2022-04-181h 06
Pyramid to CirclesSociocracy 3.0 in practice, w/ Jef CumpsJef Cumps is the author of Sociocracy 3.0, the Novel, and the founder of ILean, a Belgian consultancy specialised in Agile and Sociocracy. In this episode, Jef shares about his experiences with companies and how he supports them finding the right balance between “maintaining the structure” and “empowering people”, two polarities often difficult to reconcile, by working both on the organisational as well as the individual levels of transformation. 2022-04-081h 03
Pyramid to CirclesWhat is Experience Design? W/ Andy SontagAndy Sontag works for the KAOSPILOT, the progressive business, design & leadership school in Denmark, where he has the role of Program Director for the Professional Experience Design program, that teaches how to design experiences that grow people and relationships.
In this episode, he explains how to create the conditions of meaningful - or generative - experiences. Successful companies offer coherent employee, brand and customer experiences that address not only the mind but also one’s feelings. Here is the link to his model (5E).
Above all, Andy is a Master of human transformation. In our con...2022-03-171h 07
Pyramid to Circles(In French) L’Intelligence de Soi - avec Bruno ThéveninBruno Thévenin a été jusqu’en 2020 le CEO de Pepsico France, où il a créé les conditions d’un cercle vertueux alliant performance économique - une croissance exponentielle puisque l’entreprise est passé de 30 M€ à 1 milliards d’€, à la performance sociale (N°1 Great Place to Work, N°1 Top Employeur France). En parallèle de ce parcours de dirigeant, Bruno s’est formé au Coaching et à l’Intelligence de Soi.
En 2020, il franchit le pas et quitte Pepsico pour s’engager dans un projet au plus prêt de sa raison d’être: reprendre le cabinet Osiris Conseil, pionnier du coaching et de l’Intelligence de s...2022-03-021h 04
Pyramid to CirclesDo you have a Purpose? If not, how to find it? W/ Marco BogersMarco Bogers is the author of “Getting Started with Holacracy: Upgrading Your Team's Productivity”. Over the years he specialized in helping leaders and organizations find their Purpose. In this podcast, Marco explains that it is not about writing a statement, but rather about finding a place within yourself that he calls the "Trusted Source", into which you can tap in order to make better decisions. I have really enjoyed this conversation that I found really inspirational. To know more about Marco’s work visit workinflow.nl2022-02-201h 29
Pyramid to CirclesLATE NITE ART w/ Adam RosendahlAdam Rosendahl is a facilitator, experience designer, and the Founder of Late Nite Art® - a creative learning and development lab. For the past 10 years, he has traveled the globe, supporting teams to improve creative confidence and deepen connection beyond the roles people play at work. His clients include Pixar, Stanford, LinkedIn... In this episode, he shares how to build psychological safety in a team so people can address greater challenges together. He brings numerous practical insights that leaders and facilitators easily can take inspiration from.2022-01-201h 02
The Alame Podcast26. How to Unleash the Power of Your People and Company: An Inspiring Conversation with Mickael Drouard, co-founder of FabricIn this inspiring conversation with Mickael Drouard co-founder of Fabric, we talked about how leaders can unleash the power of their people and companies. Some of the topics we are explored:– Driving collaboration being critical in the new era we live in– Meetings as the best shots to drive teamwork and collaboration– Leaders could delegate facilitating meeting […]2022-01-1800 min
Pyramid to Circles100 DAY WARRIOR - A program for entrepreneurs & leadersAtalwin Pilon is the founder of 100 Day Warrior, a spiritual and physical transformation program that creates the conditions for talented human beings to rise above themselves. This life-changing journey enables consciousness shifts, as well as renewed energy and meaning. Atalwin’s approach to transformation, by combining body and mind, is refreshing, highly innovative and quite unique. He inspires leaders to prepare themselves to face whatever challenges life throws at them. In this episode, he shares his personal journey that led him to create this program. Visit www.100daywarrior.com for more details.2022-01-131h 05
Pyramid to Circles(In French) Comment changer les comportements chez les managers? avec JF Hadida, OrangeCo-fondateur et Directeur d'Orange Campus Management, l'université d'entreprise d'Orange qui s'occupe des 20 000 managers du groupe pour des programmes de formation et de transformation, Jean-François Hadida est aussi conférencier; sa passion : décortiquer les comportements managériaux pour favoriser leur évolution et permettre à l’entreprise et aux humains qui y travaillent de mieux faire face à un environnement toujours plus complexe, volatile et incertain. Créatif et passionné, Jean-François partage dans ce podcast ses convictions sur la transformation managériale, construite sur plus de 10 années d’accompagnement au plus près des dirigeants du leader français des Telco.2021-12-171h 18
Le Monde InformatiqueLMI 11 Biblio Le management adaptatif à l'épreuveMickaël Drouard, Stéphane Pensivy et Yann Bresson publient chez Pearson leur manifeste managérial : La gouvernance adaptative.2021-12-1001 min
Pyramid to Circles(In French) Être un bâtisseur d'essentiel - avec Hubert de BoisredonPDG du groupe Armor depuis 2004, Hubert a conduit cette ETI française de 2500 collaborateurs dans 30 pays à multiplier par 4 son chiffre d'affaires, à racheter son concurrent américain jusqu'à devenir aujourd’hui le leader mondial sur son marché. Ayant mis l’innovation, le développement durable et l'entrepreneuriat au cœur de sa stratégie, Hubert dirige cette entreprise à partir de convictions humanistes et spirituelles profondes qu’il partage dans son livre L'Esprit souffle, suis-le” (ed. Mame, 2021). Son message: “La priorité de l’entreprise n’est pas la maximisation du profit, mais bien son rôle de transformation de la société en profondeur, pour const...2021-11-251h 05
Azzzap ! Développez l'impact de votre travailComment amener une équipe à l'auto-organisation ? Mickael Drouard, co-auteur de "La Gouvernance Adaptative"Quelques liens pour compléter l'épisode :
- le site de Fabric : https://fabric.team/fr/
- le livre "La Gouvernance Adaptative", éd.Pearson : https://amzn.to/3GkByCJ
- le podcast de Mickael "Pyramid to circles" : https://podcasts.apple.com/fr/podcast/pyramid-to-circles/id1571624552
---------
Découvrez mon livre "Self Manager : 5 jours pour mieux organiser son travail et (enfin) profiter de sa vie perso" : https://bit.ly/selfmanagersite
Disponible sur Amazon : http://bit.ly/self-manager-amz
Disponible sur FNAC : http://bit.ly/self-manager-fnac
2021-10-2631 min
Pyramid to CirclesWhy do I work in organisations' transformation? w/ Mickael DrouardIn this podcast, we turn the microphone. My friend and business partner Chloé Grabli interviews me. I share my convictions, my experience as a change agent, in particular my journey in collective intelligence, Holacracy, Adaptive Governance, as well as the story of Fabric, the one of the book I just published, and some of the lessons I learned in 20 years working with dozens of organisations... I also share the deeper reasons that drive me in this life and career path. I found this moment very authentic and intimate. I even said some secrets about me I had never told s...2021-10-1452 min
Pyramid to CirclesAre you a decentralist? w/ Tom Thomison, co-founder of HolacracyOneFor the last 15 years, Thomas Thomison has been developing Holacracy® into a replacement for conventional management power hierarchies. In 2015, he co-launched encode.org to upgrade underlying business legal, capital, and social structures with the same self-organizing principles. In this podcast, Tom shares the deep convictions that led him dedicate his career to create organisations that truly respect people and enable their potentiel to reveal itself. He explains many of the fundamental distinctions to understand how to shift from a centralised to a decentralised power system. A chance to get those directly from the source.2021-10-061h 31
Pyramid to Circles(IN FRENCH) La Gouvernance Adaptative : Le témoignage du dirigeantStéphane Pensivy est Directeur des Opérations France pour le B2B d’Orange. Lui et moi sommes les co-auteurs, avec Yann Bresson, du livre La Gouvernance Adaptative, libérez le pouvoir d’agir en entreprise (Ed. Pearson). Dans ce podcast, Stéphane partage le cheminement personnel qui l’a conduit à initier cette transformation qui a touché des centaines de collaborateurs sur trois années. Il aborde également les défis du dirigeant pour réussir une transformation vers l’agilité dans une entreprise aussi complexe qu’Orange, ses propres apprentissages ainsi que ses conseils éclairés pour mettre en place la Gouve2021-09-111h 10
Pyramid to Circles(IN FRENCH) Qui est le manager aujourd'hui? Ce sont le équipes. Ou comment réussir la transformation agile “à l’échelle”Chloé Grabli est mon associée au sein du cabinet de conseil Fabric. Pionnière de l'intelligence collective, accompagnante d'organisations depuis plus de 10 ans, elle a développé des compétences uniques sur le passage à l’échelle de la transformation. Elle résume son métier comme celui de “créer les conditions pour que l‘organisation soit au plus beau d'elle-même”. Dans ce podcast elle partage ses “secrets de Fabric”, les approches uniques qu’elle propose face problématiques qu’elle rencontre au quotidien, pour que la transformation ne soit pas l’affaire des managers, mais bien celle des équipes. 2021-09-111h 00
Pyramid to CirclesNon Violent Communication & Internal Family Systems, w/ Saleem EbrahimMeet an amazing man, a seasoned Master of Non Violent Communication (NVC). A true world citizen who, with Indian origins, has worked and lived in France, USA, Italy, England, Kenya and Spain, Saleem Ebrahim has been a NVC corporate trainer for over 3 decades. Ten years ago he merged NVC with Internal Family Systems (developed by Richard Schwarz) in order to support the development of large organisations dealing with high levels of complexity and build their self leadership capacities. His highly inspirational insights truly enable you to get a deep understanding of NVC and why it is an essential key...2021-09-111h 09
Pyramid to CirclesDiscover how to use the super power of storiesThe capacity to deal with higher levels of complexity requires a culture shift from a competitive narrative to a collaborative one. In this episode, meet with the internationally renowned story activist Mary Alice Arthur, co-creator of the Collective Story Harvesting method and author of 365 ALIVE! Find your voice, Claim your story, Live your brilliant life (https://www.getsoaring.com). She introduces the 3 waves of stories : Influence, Meaning making and Healing & Wholing, as well as the 5 transformation skills that every change agent shall develop. Mary-Alice is one of the most advanced pioneers in understanding and transforming the underlying stories that c...2021-07-291h 09
Pyramid to CirclesStop thinking about growing, think about thriving. With Michelle HollidayMichelle is a seasoned facilitator, speaker and researcher, as well as author of The Age of Thrivability: Vital Perspectives and Practices for a Better World. She lives in Montreal. In this episode, Michelle explains the 4 life universal design conditions and how to apply them in organisations. She brings advanced distinctions to help understand what it takes to shift from a mechanistic to a living system culture and explains how companies can be practice grounds for reinventing our world. A highly inspiring conversation addressing the core of the culture shift we need to evolve towards agile, resilient and adaptive organisations.2021-07-1556 min
Pyramid to CirclesThe 6 key practices to implement self-organization – With Eric Axel Zimmer, Co-founder of FabricIn this episode, I have the pleasure to receive my business partner. Axel has over 20 years of experience in the field of organizational transformation. He has worked on 100+ projects in over 30 listed companies. He presents the 6 practices that we, at Fabric (https://fabric.team), bring to our clients as they evolve from pyramid-matrix to self-organization. Axel draws from his extensive experience actionable insights to succeed change.2021-07-1050 min
Pyramid to CirclesThe (quite impressive) agile transformation of Roche, with Alain Bindels, Head of Innovation Facilitation and DigitalisationRoche is a leading global healthcare company. Over the last few years, it has undertaken a major cultural transformation to become agile and digital, that many see as a reference. Alain Bindels has been a key actor in the design and the facilitation of this journey from its beginning . He shares his insider experience, explains in detail how Roche led this transformation successfully, the challenges they met, and the company's new focus on innovation.2021-07-0635 min
Pyramid to Circles(IN FRENCH) - Et si la grande distribution pouvait allier la performance et l’humain? Rencontre au coeur de la transformation de DécathlonLudovic Boutin est l’un des piliers de la transformation de Décathlon vers un modèle qui capitalise sur le potentiel de ses collaborateurs. Il incarne par son parcours des valeurs fortes d’authenticité, de confiance et d’autonomie. Dans son témoignage particulièrment inspirant, découvrez une transformation unique vue et vécue de l’intérieur et les dispositifs concrets mis en oeuvre.2021-07-0453 min
Pyramid to CirclesWhy and how to implement empowerment in a multinational company? The experience of Itziar Canamasas, a change pioneer in BayerItziar Canamasas holds a PhD in tumor genetics. She works at Bayer Pharmaceuticals as Head of Oncology for the region Europe, Middle East and Africa. There, she pioneers new ways of working that favor empowerment and agility. In this episode, Itziar shares about the business challenges she faces and how to address them with a new approach. She gives many tips from her own experience on how to build a more networked and empowered organization, drawing on the energy of people.2021-07-0232 min
Pyramid to CirclesManaging with the Philosophers - With Flora Bernard, author and co-founder of Thaé, a philosophy agency.Flora is the co-founder of Thaé (https://thae.fr), a philosophy agency based in Paris. She uses Philosophy to support managers leading the change. She draws from Epictetus, Krishnamurti, Spinoza, Bergson, Arendt or Socrates very concrete practices that challenge the way we think. In this conversation, we discuss why reasoning is key to collective intelligence, the power of questions, how to use company values effectively, and much more.2021-07-021h 01
Pyramid to CirclesHow to transform your organisation from hierachy to empowerment, one step at the time? Meet with James Priest, Co-founder of Sociocracy 3.0Sociocracy 3.0 is an innovative and comprehensive social technology for evolving agile and resilient organisations at any size. S3 offers a menu of transformational patterns from which teams and individuals can pick from and apply, one step at the time (see more at https://sociocracy30.org). In this podcast, James shares the journey that brought him to co-creating S3, and brings fundamental distinctions and advice that leaders and changemakers can apply to take their role to a new level.2021-06-251h 03
Pyramid to CirclesThe key components of a Living Organisation and how to apply them to reach greater outcomes w/ Norman WolfeMeet Norman Wolfe, author of The Living Organization (2011) ; he inspired Frederic Laloux for his book Reinventing Organisations.
In this episode, Norman explains why most of the transformation programs fail. He brings his refreshing vision of organisations as human beings and how to tune our intuition to deeply understand them. He also explains the the notion of context, the "story" driving the organization, and the necessity to consciously replace it with a new one if you want to generate the collective behaviors that will enable reaching the expected outcome. A must-have lesson for change makers who wants to u...2021-06-201h 14Pyramid to CirclesEpisode 1 - Introduction to Pyramid to Circles podcastIn this first episode, Mickael Drouard, co-founder of Fabric (www.fabric.team) and host of the podcast introduces why he decided to broadcast and what to expect from the episodes to come.2021-06-0807 min