Shows
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 22 - Joseph Lee talks dyslexia and dysgraphiaEpisode Notes
What is dyslexia and dysgraphia? Joseph Lee is a talented man who does not let either disability get in his way.2025-06-2928 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 21 - Bianca SaezEpisode Notes
What do you know about Tourettes? What are the communication issues that a person who has Tourettes lives with?2025-06-2222 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 20 - Cherie PattersonEpisode Notes
Cherie Patterson has lived with severe vision impairment from birth. Che has never let it stop her meeting her goals. Cherie has worked in both the public and private sectors. What has changed in the work environment in regards to digital accessibility?2025-06-1625 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 19 - Luna RoseEpisode Notes
Luna Rose has no vision. Ever wonder how she votes and what are the barriers that she has to voting?2025-06-0821 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 18 - Hilton LukeEpisode Notes
Hilton Luke from Queensland Department of Primary Industry has been working on a project to implement digital accessibility to their products. What are the challenges that they have experienced?2025-06-0118 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 17 - Paul PriceEpisode Notes
Paul Price is a sound engineer with Reading Radio. He has lived with disability all his life. What has changes in legislation at the Federal and State levels done to assist Paul?2025-05-2615 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 16 - Mark Muscat talks ConformanceEpisode Notes
How do you ensure that your website meets the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? Who should you talk to. Mark Muscat from DASAT has the answers2025-05-2629 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 15 - Tommy Trout talks about the Why for Digital AccessibilityEpisode Notes
Tommy Trout from DisBranded Inclusive-AF does a deep dive into the Why of being inclusive. Why should digital accessibility be incorporated into your work.2025-05-1023 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 14 - Mark Muscat talks about the Understandable and Robust PrinciplsEpisode Notes
What is the Understandable Principle of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? What about the Robust Principle. How should they be applied. Do they make a difference> Mark Muscat from DASAT has some answers for you.2025-05-0322 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisdoe 13 - Mark Muscat talks the Operability GuidelineEpisode Notes
What is the Operability Principle of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? Why does it matter? Where can it help? Mark Muscat from Digital Access Solutions and Assistive technology has the answers.2025-04-2625 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 12 = Lisa YoungEpisode Notes
Lisa Young is an independent orientation and mobility specialist who works with vision impaired people to enable t heir independence in the community. In this episode, Lisa talks about the barriers to people with disability when all the signs and methods of navigation are not set up for the vision impaired.2025-04-1928 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 11 - Chris KerriskEpisode Notes
Chris Kerrisk is the CEO of Cerge. Cerge is a mobile phone app that links people with disability and services in the community from swimming pools and retail shops to airports and every other service in between.
Therefore, it is important that the app meets the Digital Accessibility Standard. Chris talks about the steps that they took to implement digital accessibility.2025-04-1226 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 10 - Techability ConferenceEpisode Notes
The TechAbility Conference explored tech in the NDIS industry. What is new and what is the expectations that the NDIS providers have to meet. Hear from ShiftCare, QuickClaim, DataNova, Able Mind Services, DisBranded, TechAbility about digital accessibility in Australia and what the latest requirements mean for the.2025-04-0619 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 9 - Tracey HayimEpisode Notes
Tracey Hayim is a graphic designer who took time off work to learn about digital accessibility, the global standard, Web content Accessibility Guidelines, and how to implement it into her work. Hear her story.2025-03-2921 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 8 - Kim Amor and Nick HoskingEpisode Notes
It is common for web developers to say that the websites that they build are digitally accessible. However, when checked using the Digital Accessibility Standard, AS EN 301 549:2024, the site isn't. Nick Hosking and Kim Amor are in the process of learning the standard. What do they think are the important thinks that developers and designers need to consider when building websites.2025-03-2222 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 7 - Luke IrwinEpisode Notes
People with disability often are victims to hacking and other cybersecurity issues. What can be done to reduce the chances? Luke Irwin from Aegis CyberSecurity has some answers.2025-03-1525 min
The Digital Access ShowSeason 2 - Episode 6 - Shiralee McKitrickEpisode Notes
Shiralee McKitrick has a chromosomal deficiency along with her boys. What are the effects on communication and how does she handle the schooling for her boys.2025-03-0828 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 5 - Aaron OrmeEpisode Notes
Aaron has worked in the Disability Sector for many years. He also has a disability that is impacted by badly structured communication. Hear Aaron talk about the frustration of not being able to work efficiently due to lack of digital accessibility awareness.2025-03-0134 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 4 - Peter ArcherEpisode Notes
Peter Archer is NDIS Provider with a difference. He is also a man with a young family that understands life with disability. Find out how Peter manages communication in his work.2025-02-2226 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 3 Anita GoverEpisode Notes
Anita Gover from Techability is organising a conference for NDIS Providers which focuses on technology solutions and NDIS systems. However, unknowingly, Anita approved a banner that broke the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and Australian Digital Accessibility Standards. Find out more about howshe handled the issues. What were the benefits of fixing the issue?2025-02-1520 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 2 - Mark WarrenEpisode Notes
Mark, a successful marketing officer, has lived with disability all his life. This means that he has experienced incorrect assumptions based on perception. How has that affected Mark? How does Mark deal with it?2025-02-0728 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 1: Allan Parker OAMEpisode Notes
Allan Parker OAM from Peak Performance Development is a micro behavioural scientist and linguist. He specialises in human behaviours and how to improve communication. He is a renown author, and has been a UN Negotiator.
Find out Allan's take on perceptions, assumptions and beliefs. How does your perceptions, assumtions and beliefs affect communication?2025-01-3124 min
Connecting Seniors (Kintsugi Heroes)Advocating for Accessibility after Legally Blind at 42 with Narelle GattiNarelle has a severe vision impairment that means she uses a guide dog to get around. She only started to lose my sight about 16 years ago and has lived with only seeing shapes for the last two years. She is an advocate for digital accessibility in Australia and work to let people know about the benefits of ensuring that everyone can access the information, understand the information and make informed decisions based on the information.The benefits of good communication and digital accessibility are important to her. And the benefits of being disabled. We are...2024-12-2229 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 44 - Jeremy HillEpisode Notes
Jeremy Hill has worked as an Orientation and Mobility Trainer for over 30 years. He joins digital assistive technologies with physical assistive technologies to teach the vision impaired how to move around the community.2024-11-3036 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 43 Emma BennisonEpisode Notes
Emma Bennison is the Chief Innovative Officer for a not for profit organisation. She is also passionate about digital accessibility. Emma discusses what usable digital communication means to her and why it is important.2024-11-2327 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 42 Patrick Lane talks Hearing impairment and Digital AccessibilityEpisode Notes
Patrick Lane is an experience designer. He is passionate about digital accessibility. Hear the reasons why.2024-11-1625 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 41 - Common Digital Accessibility ErrorsEpisode Notes
What are the common Digital Accessibility errors that can be found on most websites? Mark Muscat, Founder of Digital Access Solutions and Assistive Technology, discusses the common errors to look out for.2024-11-0927 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 40 - Jackie McRae Talks Usable Digital CommunicationEpisode Notes
What is Usable Digital Communication? How can you create great content that meets the usability and accessibility guidelines?2024-11-0215 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 39 - Tania GomezEpisode Notes
Tania Gomez works with NDIS providers to to meet the NDIS goals. She is also an auditor and understands the importance of communication. One of the biggest barriers is the breakdown in communication between provider and participant. Why?2024-10-2022 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 38 - Shevonne JoyceEpisode Notes
Shevonne is a leader who also has disability. She runs her own business, electro Consulting. Shevonne has turned her disability into a positive and it enables her to be a leader and entreprenaur.2024-10-1332 min
The Digital Access Show37 - Laura McIntoshEpisode Notes
Laura McIntosh is an advocate for empowering yourself. What does she mean? Taking responsibilty of your actions and taking control of your life to make your life what you want. How does that apply to disability and communication? Have a listen to this week's podcast.2024-10-0621 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 36 - Andrew Backhouse talks communication stylesEpisode Notes
There are many communication barriers. Some that you won't be aware of. What can be done to break down those barriers. Andrew Backhouse from Queenslanders with Disability Network discusses this.2024-09-2923 min
The Digital Access Show35 - Sujit MenonEpisode Notes
Sujit Menon has a suggestion for all web developers and designers to consider when looking at accessibility. Simple and effective and can become your business card. It is also meeting the digital accessibility standards2024-09-2220 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 34 - Brett O'Connor talks educationEpisode Notes
Brett O'Connor from the Inception Network is passionate about education. He discusses what people should expect when doing a training course. What is a reasonable adjustment and what are the student's rights in regards to reasonable adjustment.2024-09-1518 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 33 - Shari Irwin from Vantage PointEpisode Notes
Shari Irwin has a very unique business. She is an audio describer. What is an audio describer?2024-08-2530 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 32 - Jeanette JifkinsEpisode Notes
What is the legal framework behind the Digital Accessibility Standards? Is there a legal framework might be a better question. Jeanette Jifkins from Onyx Legal gives us the rundown on what the legal framework is and who it applies to.2024-08-1823 min
The Digital Access Show31 - Santiago ValesquezEpisode Notes
Santiago Valesquez came to Australia as a child. He, like everyone, has issues catching public transport. However, Santiago has found a solution. Hear Santiago discuss the solution for people missing buses and the way to make public transport more efficient for us all. See www.hailo.co for more information2024-08-1125 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 30 - Dr Scott HollierEpisode Notes
Dr Scott Hollier from The Centre for Accessibility is the go to person for Digital Accessibility in Australia. He is on taskforces with the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) and works to make life better for people with disability. Here about the history of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and what is happening in the next release.2024-08-0422 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 29 - Janeen VosperEpisode Notes
Janeen Vosper is like many people who are getting a little older, or younger depending on your definition. Her husband started losing his hearing. There are many frustrations that everyone experiences. How can you work through this with your partner? Janeen has some great tips for you.2024-07-2823 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 27 - Andrew LeighEpisode Notes
Andrew Leigh, and his wife Laura, are parents of 1 son and 3 girls. They also have a support company called Helping Hands Inc. Why did they start the company and what is their reward. One word, their son.
Listen and be inspired by the way a couple make a huge difference to someone who is special and needs that bit of extra help.2024-07-2128 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 27 - Sally MeshelEpisode Notes
Sally Meshel is a special person. She is a support teacher for children with disability. Here Sally discuss the education that is available and her experiences as a special education teacher.2024-07-1420 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 26 - Amir MeshelEpisode Notes
Buying or renting can be a very stressful time for anyone. Now add disability into the mix. You can't access a space. You can't read the website. Research is really hard. You can't hear the audio. You can't read the documents. Amir Meshel is a buyer's agent who has a passion for making life easier for people with disability to buy their own home.2024-07-0725 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 25 - Mak Muscat Illese Smithwick Part 2Episode Notes
Travelling ona cruise ship can be a good one to explore overseas destinations. This journey undertaken by Mark and Illese focuses on ,the cruise ship, Alaska and Japan.2024-06-3022 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 24 - Mark Muscat and Illese Smithwick Part 1Episode Notes
Mark has a severe vision impairment however he also likes to travel. He and Illese Smsithwick did 5 weeks of overseas travel through USA, Canada and Japan. They discuss accessibility, the good, the bad and the ugly.2024-06-2318 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 23 - Kathleen CasfordEpisode Notes
Ever thought about how a person with vision impairment distinguishes between shampoo and conditioner. What about body lotion or body wash. Or the bottles are, generally, the same shape and size. Kathleen Casford took on the challege and came up with a simple solution that can be applied to most packaging.2024-06-1618 min
Talking Vision by Vision Australia RadioTalking Vision 732 Week Beginning 10th of June 2024Sam is joined this week by Narelle Gatti, a passionate digital access advocate with lived experience of vision loss. Narelle speaks about how she managed life with her family after the change, her work and podcast addressing accessibility needs, and appearing on Vision Australia Radio program Kintsugi Heroes. Then after we hear from Narelle, Associate Professor Matthew Butler is back on the program to tell us about a new PhD scholarship opportunity at the Monash Assistive Technology Society centre.Support this Vision Australia Radio program: https://www.visionaustralia.org/donate?src=radio&type=0...2024-06-1228 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 22 - Paul Bryan from Action and IntentEpisode Notes
Paul Bryan from Action and Intent is a business coach who works with business in the Disability Sector. We discuss a couple of issues in the disability sector that are affecting everyone. What is Paul's thoughts on the changes happening in the NDIS and digital accessibility. Have a listen. Let us know your thoughts.2024-06-0920 min
Kintsugi Heroes: Uncovering our Hidden ValueAdvocating for Accessibility after Legally Blind at 42 with Narelle GattiNarelle has a severe vision impairment that means she uses a guide dog to get around. She only started to lose my sight about 16 years ago and has lived with only seeing shapes for the last two years. She is an advocate for digital accessibility in Australia and work to let people know about the benefits of ensuring that everyone can access the information, understand the information and make informed decisions based on the information.The benefits of good communication and digital accessibility are important to her. And the benefits of being disabled. We are...2024-06-0431 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 21 - Reflections on Disability EmploymentDisability Employment helps the whole community. This week we are joined by Mark Muscat, Mary Wong, Patrick Dillon, Rebbecca Jurkiewicz, Brendan Somerville and Paula Burgess to discuss all things in employment for people with disability.
We hear from business owners, people with disability and disability employment specialists. What are your thoughts.2024-06-0225 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 20 - Bernie KellyWhat makes good communication? What needs to be considered? How does english as a second language affect communication? Bernie Kelly of "A Journey with Bernie" discusses his experiences.2024-05-2627 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 19 - ReflectionsEpisode Notes
We have met so many wonderful people in the last 18 episodes. After going back and looking at what I have learnt I thought that I would bring the best bits together. I only got up to episode 7. So here is the first episode of Reflections.2024-05-1915 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 18 - Jaceen RossLiving with disability in a regional area of Australia comes with some extra challenges. From the lack of services to transport life is different to those who live in the city. Jaceen Ross discusses her experiences of living with disability in regional Queensland.2024-05-1226 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 17 - Alyce Carter-EdwardsEpisode Notes
Alyce Carter-Edwards is hearing impaired lady who teaches us about the challenges of being hairing impaired.2024-05-0530 min
The Digital Access ShowWhat can business do to increase accessibility for people with disabilityNik Cree has run businesses for many years. His current work involves digital marketing and web development. Nik and Narelle discuss the ways that business and people with disability can work together to improve digital accessibility for everyone.2024-04-2823 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 15 - Rebbecca JurkiewiczEver wondered what is required by employers to be a position to employee people with disability? What does a person with disability need to do to be more employable? What are the needs of each and what steps need to be taken to be more inclusive. Rebbecca Jurkiewicz from Chapter One Disability Employment Services talks everything about disability employment services.2024-04-1425 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 14 - Lucy Seret
How do people with vision impairment navigate? How do they find the shop or the house or other business? They use maps on their phones just like everyone. However, there are some more apps being released that will assist everyone. these apps are based on way finding techniques. Lucy is the usability design lead for one of these apps.2024-04-0725 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 13 Laura GarciaEpisode Notes
Laura Garcia and her husband welcomed their baby girl, Eva, into the world 12 years ago. While Eva was a baby she became sick and developed a condition called cortical visual impairment. CVI for short. Eva's eyes work however the illness caused an issue in the cortico-visual area of her brain. So Eva is blind. Eva has been the face of Braille House in Queensland loves reading and playing sport. How does she do it. Assistive technology of course. Hear Laura and Eva's story this week on our podcast.2024-03-3021 min
Optimal ConversationsEp#12 - Narelle Gatti – Why Accessibility Matters for All of Us.Send us a textAs a mother of three young children, Narelle found herself falling over things and went to see her optometrist to discover she was facing permanent blindness. That hasn’t stopped her from living her life to the fullest, and she is on a mission to make sure anyone with a disability has the same opportunity. In this episode, we talk about resilience, innovation, country life, reflection, and opportunities. Join us for a remarkable conversation that will change your perspective on disability.Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DIGITALDASAT2024-03-291h 16
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 12 - Amber Adcock talks ASD and communication.Episode Notes
Amber and her husband, Jed, welcomed a baby boy into the world 3 years ago. His name is Hugo. Hugo is ASD level 3 and non-verbal. The journey that they are on as a family is a long journey with many challenges. Hear about their journey.2024-03-2335 min
The Digital Access ShowPatrick Dillon became a quadraplegic later in life.Episode Notes
Patrick Dillon went for a swim to cool off in the Dawson River. His life changed forever. Listen to Patrick's journey. He talks about the assistive technology tools that give him independence. An awesome chat.2024-03-1628 min
The Digital Access ShowMeryl Evans and accessibilityEpisode Notes
Meryl Evans was born profoundly deaf. She is a professional speaker, and trainer, accessibility marketing consultant and all round nice lady. What is accessibility for Meryl.2024-03-0925 min
A Journey with Bernie68. At 42 years, society declared me BLIND and I am glad they did - the Narelle Gatti StoryThe learning and the offerings from this episode with Narelle Gatti start with her rural upbringing. Listen to Narelle and you will hear over and over again a recurring theme that simply says ‘toughen up sister … shit happens … and move on’. It is the country way. However, one would have thought that when an individual at the age of 42, is officially declared so 'visually impaired' that all she can see are blurred shadowy movements, that they would experience ‘loss’, a little bit of ‘why me’ and have that tinge of feeling sorry for oneself. I am sure that to so...2024-03-081h 10
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 9 - Mary WongEpisode Notes
Mary Wong started out as a nurse. She is now an published author, business and leadership coach. What lessons did she learn as she went on this journey. What is the way that mary incorporates accessibility into her work.2024-03-0233 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 8 - Mark MuscatEpisode Notes
Ever thought about how the changes in technology have benefited people with disability. the world changes quickly and the benefits can be great. Mark Muscat discusses his journey with vision impairment and how the changes in technology have made a diference in his life.
This podcast is powered by Pinecast.2024-02-2434 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 7 - Grace CameronEpisode Notes
[Music] [Narelle] Hello and welcome to, I think it's episode six of The Digital Access Show. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to interview for a while. I met her through a networking group called BX and the way Grace tackles life head-on, and with a laugh is just such she's a great person for me to follow in the way she manages life. I'd like to introduce you all to Grace Cameron. Grace is the director and owner of Sunlight Bookkeeping, but I'm going to let Grace tell you a little bit about...2024-02-1731 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 6- Brendan SomervilleEpisode Notes
[Music] [Narelle] Hi and welcome to our latest Digital Access Show. Today, I have Brendan Somerville with us. Brendan is working with Spinal Life and his role in Spinal Life is to help employers bring on board people with disability. What you don't know, and you can't see I'll let Brendan tell you himself. However, thanks Brendan, thanks for your time today. [Brendan] Yeah, thank you for the invitation, Narelle. Looking forward to having a chat. [Narelle] Well, I've been looking forward to this one for a while because employing people with disability is a...2024-02-1028 min
The Digital Access ShowDavid Oram from Atomic Web StrategyEpisode Notes
[Music] [Narelle] Hi and welcome to our next edition of The Digital Access Show. Today, I want to introduce you to a guy that we've done a bit of work with and we absolutely love working with David, David Oram is from Atomic Web Strategy. David is based in Melbourne and hello David. [David] Hi Narelle, thanks for having me. [Narelle] Well, thanks for coming David. I have actually stuffed up this is the second time we've tape this podcast, because I had a computer problem and you know the second one's never going to...2024-02-0217 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 4 - Shannon TowellEpisode Notes
Shannon Towell is an Experience Designer who specialises in creating the best experiences for her clients. Working in both the digital and physical realm through the medium of websites, and interactives for museums and other cultural institutions.
This podcast is powered by Pinecast.2024-01-2427 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 3 - Adam Morris, Assistive Technology TrainerEpisode Notes
Adam Morris is an assistive technology trainer who also happens to be vision impaired. Adam currently works for a Non Government Operator. He is affective and efficient and has some great points to offer.
This podcast is powered by Pinecast.2024-01-1735 min
The Digital Access ShowPaula Burgess from Beyond the Maze and Bosslady SkillsEpisode Notes
Paula Burgess is an entrepreneur, business coach, boss, mum, sister and fan of digital accessibility. She discusses how she incorporates accessibility into her work. Also find out a couple of great tips.
This podcast is powered by Pinecast.2024-01-0828 min
The Digital Access ShowEpisode 1 - Allan Parker OAM talks about Digital AccessibilityEpisode Notes
Allan Parker OAM, micro behavioural neuroscientist and forensic linguist, has travelled the world, written books and is an expert in complex negotiation and mediation. Allan is also dyslexic. Not able to read until he was 30 he has completed university degrees and has some great tips on how to manage meetings and conferences with diverse people to ensure inclusivity.
This podcast is powered by Pinecast.2024-01-0132 min
The Digital Access ShowAllan and Narelle discuss the idea of a new podcast.2023-12-1511 min
The Digital Access ShowNarelle and Mark discuss the possibilities2023-11-2407 min
Innovate For Impact by Tania Gomez ConsultingUnlocking Digital Access: Narelle Gatti | Innovate for ImpactWelcome to 'Innovate for Impact,' the podcast series hosted by Tania Gomez Consulting. Join us as we embark on a journey through the ever-evolving landscape of the NDIS, exploring the transformative power of innovation for a more inclusive tomorrow.
In this episode, Tania Gomez interviews the inspiring Narelle Gatti, Digital Access Consultant and Auditor of Digital Access and Assistive Technology. Learn about the importance of digital accessibility and literacy for people with disabilities in this informative video. Narelle Gatti, a digital accessibility consultant, talks about the work her team is doing to educate businesses and NDIS...2023-11-0125 min
Vision Extra by Vision Australia RadioVision Extra - 12 April 2023 - Narelle Gatti and Mark MuscatAs of the start of this year Vision Extra in Adelaide has been subsumed by Peter's other Wednesday night show Focal Point. For the time-being Vision Extra (as is being broadcast in the other states) is being podcast as well However this interview is also available in the Focal Point Podcast: https://omny.fm/shows/focal-point See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.2023-04-1215 min
We Are Women PodcastEpisode 139 - Shining the Light on Digital Accessibility
Narelle Gatti
Narelle Gatti is blind.
That is not something she allows to define her. She lives an inspiring life assisting those around her to consider ways to communicate effectively with people with disabilities.
She is part of a group that educates people about accessibility and how to be digitally friendly.
They are auditors, business consultants, developers, a micro behavioural neuroscientist, and linguist.
Narelle and her team believe everyone deserves to have access to information no matter what the disability.
In this podcast, Narelle explains why it is so cr...2023-02-0254 min
Only Human RadioSteve Talks To Narelle Gatti - Support Group For Blind People In BrisbaneSteve Talks To Narelle Gatti - Support Group For Blind People In Brisbane by Kim Stewart2020-03-0709 min