Shows
Sonder UnionEp 28 - Heart Animals and Finite ThingsAmy lost Roy two weeks before we recorded this. Roy was her cat for seventeen years—what she calls her "heart animal." If you've ever had one, you know what that means. If you haven't, you probably think we're being dramatic about a pet, and you can go to hell.We talked about grief, but also about mortality and meaning and why our culture is so fucking terrible at dealing with death. Amy's been wrestling with the big questions lately—what happens when we die, how to build a coherent worldview without traditional religion, why some people trea...2025-07-071h 13
Sonder UnionEp 27 - Maybe Just Accept that You're IntenseIn this wide-ranging conversation, Owen sits down with fellow "reluctant lawyer" Pat Patino to explore the tension between intensity and minimalism, the challenge of getting past the 90% threshold, and what it means to live an impractical life.Topics discussed:The realization that intensity might be a feature, not a bugWhy both hosts stopped identifying closely with being attorneysThe Chinese literati and the lost art of being multiple thingsPat's decision to stop practicing law and embrace uncertaintyThe coloring book approach to life and work2025-06-021h 29
This Legal Life: Lessons Learned from a Life in LegalRewriting the Rules: Owen McGrann on Packaging Law, Embracing Identity, and Building with PurposeIn this episode of This Legal Life, host Ben Chiriboga sits down with Owen McGrann — lawyer, founder, writer, and creative legal thinker — to explore how legal practice can be rebuilt from the inside out. Owen shares his deeply personal journey from burnout in Big Law and a life-threatening medical crisis to launching a solo firm driven by flat fees, client alignment, and productized legal services. Together, they unpack the intersection of philosophy, pricing, community, and identity — and why sometimes the most powerful shift in law isn’t external innovation, but internal transformation.Meet Our Guest: Owen McG...2025-05-0547 min
Sonder UnionEp 26 - Enough Talking About ChangeHave you ever noticed that when leaders of organizations talk very loudly about making change, almost nothing meaningful changes?Anastasia Boyko is a rare true changemaker and she was gracious enough to take a beat and talk with us about a whole bevy of topics from her unique vantage. Anastasia was born in Soviet Ukraine, made her way to Utah with her mother before the wall fell, worked her way to Yale Law and Manhattan Biglaw, into the world of legal tech, back to Yale to create an innovative leadership program, before moving to home/not-home...2025-01-131h 20
Sonder UnionEp 25 - Killing Your GuruTony Albrecht joins us for a master class in trolling me on TSwift before we inevitably jump into a long discourse on creativity and the lunacy of creatives.No more need be said. Enjoy.Find Tony on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-albrecht/Visit CONTENDER: https://contenderllc.com/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.owenmcgrann.com2024-11-041h 13
Founding Partner PodcastOperating Two Separate Law Firms with Owen McGrannJoin us on The Founding Partners Podcast as we dive into the world of legal entrepreneurship with Owen Mcgrann. Discover how he manages client communication, handles equity as payment, and balances creativity with business. We explore his podcast, Sonder Union, and his journey as a musician and writer. Gain insights into the challenges and rewards of building a business and the importance of embracing growth. Tune in for an engaging conversation that blends law, creativity, and personal passions. 2024-10-1559 min
Sonder UnionEp 24 - Every Book is a Children's BookRobb Gilbear messaged me several weeks back and remarked how we were living on opposite ends of the child-rearing spectrum. I knew immediately that I had to have him join Sonder Union to talk through all the feels. I can't tell you how soothing it is speaking with Robb, although I suspect you'll get a sense from listening to this episode.You can find Robb here: LinkedIn GrowthHabit Die Before They Do This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this...2024-10-071h 14
Sonder UnionEp 23 - The Point of a Magic TrickSome episodes of Sonder Union are a little serious and dour. I love those episodes, but this one certainly isn't one of them. Chris Sellers joins me, in his Trilby, to talk all about creativity, the way we torture and forgive ourselves, and the way we interact with the stories other people want to write for us.Check out Chris at all of these places:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/c-s-sellers/https://www.cssellers.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss...2024-09-171h 13
Sonder UnionEp 22 - Doing the Work You Want to DoMurray Gottheil joins Sonder Union to discuss how to think about work, retirement, and surviving a career in law. One of the most interesting figures in the legal corner of LinkedIn, Murray is as funny as he is opinionated. In other words, my kinda people.You can find Murray here:https://www.murraygottheil.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/murray-gottheil-58787b1/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit...2024-09-021h 17
Sonder UnionEp 21 - When Focus Looks Like DistractionKyle Holden joins Sonder Union for a wide-ranging discussion between two folks with ADHD. This means there are many threads that seem incoherent that do get pulled together after what seems like too long a time. One of the things I love about the ADHD brain is that we can see connections between and among things that get incorporated in unpredictable ways in stories and what appear to be meandering discussions but end up being anything but.Kyle and his wife, Lily Schurra, are amazing people and instant friends...even though I've...2024-08-231h 13
Sonder UnionEp 20 - The Medium is the MessageIf you know me at all, you know that I have a book problem. I love them. I collect them. I study them -- and I don't mean the words in them (though I do that too), but the physical objects. You won't see me with a Kindle any time soon.In this episode of Sonder Union, Toni Serofin joins us to talk about books, music, and art. It was a thoroughly enjoyable conversation with an absolutely fascinating woman.You can find Toni on Linked...2024-08-141h 12
Sonder UnionEp 19 - Growing Accustomed to the AlarmAfter a bit of a paternity leave of sorts, we're back with the one and only Graeme Johnson. Graeme is hands-down one of the more erudite folks in the legal community and I love talking with him, because I always come away learning something interesting and new.You can find Graeme on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnstongraeme/And you should check out what he's up to at https://www.juralio.com This is a public episode. If you would...2024-08-101h 22
Sonder UnionEp 18 - The Proper Estimate of OneselfJohn Glicksman joins Sonder Union for this episode, in which I pepper him with questions about parenthood, music, confidence, and humility. He asked me if there was anything he needed to do to prepare and I said "Nope!" He was an absolute sport as I steered the conversation places that he had no warning of.John is one of the smartest and most humble people I know and he brings that energy in this episode.You can find him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com...2024-07-081h 20
They Don't Teach This in Law SchoolBuilding Systems and Habits as an ADHD Entrepreneur with Owen McGrannSend us a textThere's a lot to unpack here... from how law firms fail to prepare students for working in small firms to creative acts in law firm ownership to creating a transformational journey for your clients. It's all thanks to Owen McGrann, the "anti-lawyer" and founder of McGrann Law.- Learn more about McGrann Law- Connect with Owen on LinkedIn- Learn more about Law Firm Alchemy- Connect with Charley on LinkedIn2024-06-1849 min
Sonder UnionEp 17 - Give a man a mask and he will tell you the truthMaking this podcast is such a joy: I just get to spend time picking amazing people's thoughts. This episode features Charley Mann, one of the nicest and most quietly insightful people I know.Charley is a law firm business coach and he's damned good at that. I'm not super interested in that, though, for the purposes of Sonder Union. So we talk about his background in acting, the nature of performance, and Pokemon.You can find Charley on his own podcast, They Don't Teach This...2024-06-031h 47
Sonder UnionEp 16 - Time is a Flat CircleWhat's it like to talk with a friend for the first time in 23 years? Not because you had a falling out, but simply because life happens. Will it be like you just saw each other, or will it be awkward and weird?Luka Poulton was kind enough to run this experiment with me and we have some answers to that riddle, at least for us. YMMV.Luka and I had a pretty wide-ranging discussion and I'm pretty confident you'll find something in here to your...2024-04-291h 39
Sonder UnionEp 15 - The Culture is Embedded in the LanuageWhat a treat it is to speak with Dr. Theodora Ziamou! Theodora is a behavioral psychologist, and as you might expect, a keen observer of people. We have a wide-ranging conversation touching on language, culture, and change.You can find Theodora on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drtheodoraziamou/If you're interested in helping your customers make better decisions, you might want to visit https://www.enlexis.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes...2024-03-1159 min
Lawyers in the Making PodcastE29: Owen McGrann Founder of Seed Counsel and Purely EstatesIn the latest episode, we delved into a profoundly raw and meaningful discussion with Owen, exploring his journey to law school, his time in the demanding environment of Big Law, and the significance of leveraging one's strengths and embracing authenticity. Owen shared his powerful story of undergoing a liver transplant four years ago, offering insights into the lessons he's garnered from this life-altering experience. His openness and honesty added remarkable depth to our conversation, making it one of the most impactful episodes to date.Owen's experience is not only inspiring but also educational, providing valuable life lessons...2024-03-051h 07
Sonder UnionEp 14 - Mapmaking and Strategic PerplexityWhat do you talk about when you've got a guy who's won one of the world's toughest races on your podcast? Well, raising children, writing and reading books, and, yes, why doing hard things isn't about the hard thing, really, so much as about breaking bread with our inner animal.Paul Watkins is a delightful guest: full of expected and unexpected wisdom and a wonderful sense of humor about things. He is able to appreciate Nassim Nicholas Taleb's work and still recognize what a gigantic douche he is.You can find Paul at...2024-03-041h 13
Sonder UnionEp 13 - Queen Maeve and the Popcorn ManCharley Mann has "coffeesodes" on his podcast – short narrative episodes in between his interviews. I guess this is similar, except not really. Helpful description, I know.If you don't want to hear a story about miscarriage or pregnancy loss, I would skip this one. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.owenmcgrann.com2024-02-1713 min
Sonder UnionEp 12 - Babysitters and CheerleadersSarah Ennor and I both have ADHD. Although we didn't intend to talk almost exclusively about ADHD, it just kinda happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯It was an absolute blast trading stories with Sarah and I suspect you'll find it pretty interesting too. Sarah has played Aussie Rules Football for Team Canada, worked as a badass lawyer for a large bank, opened her own business, and has made it a mission to speak about ADHD in the professional world.She's awesome and you can find her on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-ennor/Mu...2024-01-291h 23
Sonder UnionEp 11 - On Losing ThingsHappy New Year and welcome back to Sonder Union. We have a treat in this episode, with Lenor Marquis Segal returning to discuss why losing things is bad, the impact of Covid, and, of course, writing.Lenor was a guest on Episode 3, The Irish Goodbye. She was a tremendous guest, and I was a tremendously shitty host. I kept cutting out during recording, leaving her hanging in the room, and then managed not to record the last 50 minutes of our conversation. She was gracious enough to come back.You can find Lenor on...2024-01-161h 04
What You're About with Chad AboudFinding meaning in work after your job nearly kills you (w/ Owen McGrann)He had it all. Fancy job. Nice salary. Prestigious employer.
And then he found himself on the operating table trying to stay live. Owen McGrann’s job as a complex case litigator looked really impressive to the outside world. But it was destroying his health so significantly that it almost killed him.
And from the operating table, Owen gained a new perspective. That he needed to create meaning from his work that went beyond the external metrics of success.
In his thoughtful and disarming way, in this interview Owen reflects on the elements of...2024-01-0838 min
Sonder UnionEp 10 - Potential and Kinetic EnergyWe're rounding out 2023 with our 10th episode, something of an achievement for a podcast. Most don't make it this far, but my own dumb obstinance has Sonder Union rolling!Episode Ten is something a bit different: there's no guest today, so you're stuck only with your humble host, who shares some reflections on where Sonder Union has been and where it hopes to go in 2024.Please rate and review! Until next year! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access...2023-12-1815 min
In Residence with Keith and LauraWhat Game Are You Playing?In today’s episode, we talk about goal achievement and how gamifying may or may not help us work through and achieve our goals. Thinking about games brought up finite and infinite games. Knowing which is which and what kind of game you’re playing matters. We also bring up several of our favorite games. 😀Laura gets stuff done. She looks to gamify her training for her 5K, 10K, and 13 mile runs as she embraces her long term goal of simply being a runner that continues to show up and invest in her practice. Keith leans into efficienc...2023-12-0752 min
Sonder UnionEp 9 - Roots, Rebellion, and the Tension of CreativtySonal Soveni missed having the type of creative community she felt at home in, so, like the badass she is, she just went ahead and decided to create it. In this episode of Sonder Union, we explore creativity, what happens when creativity is suppressed, how our families give context to our pursuits (even if we might not recognize it), and the importance of having creative spaces that make exploration and mistakes okay.If you are in the northeast of the United States, you need to make your way to New Haven, Connecticut for some great pizza...2023-12-041h 18
Sonder UnionEp 8 - Melancholia and Assorted MaladiesSeveral weeks ago, I felt an acute case of loneliness, a disconnect from the world that left me pretty floored. I nearly sat down and recorded a solo episode of Sonder Union exploring this theme, but decided that might be interesting, but it wasn't a Sonder Union episode.Instead, I texted my guest for this episode, one of my oldest and best friends, Rob Lisy. Although the premise of the podcast is to get to know new people, I invited Rob on for a few reasons: I like talking with him and missed...2023-11-201h 15
The Newfangled LawyerEpisode 17: Everything Changes and Nothing Lasts Forever with Owen McGrannIn this episode of the Newfangled Lawyer Podcast, host Patrick Patino sits down with Owen McGrann. The conversation covers a wide spectrum, from the meaning of time and the billable hour to facing mortality and embracing risk.
Owen shares his unique journey into law, revealing that being a lawyer is not his primary identity. He discusses his dual practice areas—working with startups and in estate planning—and the challenges of managing two separate firms.
The episode delves into Owen's perspective on risk, challenging the traditional legal mindset that seeks to minimize it. Owen sees risk...2023-11-1448 minIn Residence with Keith and LauraA Mixed Tape Session 2Let's do another Mixed Tape Session. We show up and see what each other has been up to or what's resonating with us as we transition towards winter.Laura finished her gardening for the year and Keith was a guest on Owen McGrann's Sonder Union podcast. Owen is a thoughtful conversationalist and host with intriguing guests. You'll wish you were sitting between them and joining in the conversation. Check out all Sonder Union episodes on Apple or Spotify.In today's episode, we cover morning routines, what we are listening to and reading, traditions we're excited about...2023-11-0259 min
Sonder UnionEp 7 - Anxiety is the Shadow of IntelligenceI'm so pleased to have Keith King on for this episode of Sonder Union. Keith is a fellow traveler on the path toward more fulfilling and creative work. We discuss music, creativity, resistance.Keith and his wife, Laura, have an amazing podcast titled "In Residence" and I recommend it very, very highly. If you like our discussion about getting through creative blockages, doing The Thing whether or not you feel ready or comfortable, and developing the practice of shipping the work...just wait until he has somebody really smart to talk with instead of me!2023-10-291h 11
Sonder UnionEp 6 - Time Management Lessons from VampiresWhat a joy it was to sit down with Hassan Ali to tape this episode of Sonder Union. Hassan is a very smart real estate developer in Chicago. He's also written for The Onion & the A.V. Club, was the person behind the marketing voice of Potbelly Sandwiches, is standing up a marketing business focused on LinkedIn, and is generally one of the nicest guys I've had the pleasure of speaking with.His face tattoos are wild.You can find him here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hassan-s-ali/ This is...2023-10-091h 13
Law Subscribed(43) Fractional Counsel + Subscriptions with Owen McGrann of Seed CounselCheck out Seed Counsel, Purely Estates, and McGrann Law.Check out my new show, the Law for Kids Podcast.Get Connected with SixFifty, a business and employment legal document automation tool.Sign up for Gavel using the code LAWSUBSCRIBED to get 10% off an annual subscription.Visit Law Subscribed to subscribe to the Substack newsletter to get notified about every episode, listen from your web browser, and for additional content.Follow @lawsubscribed everywhere.Sign up for the Subscription Seminar waitlist at subscriptionseminar.com.Check out Mathew Kerbis' law firm Subscription Attorney LLC. Get full access to Law Subscribed at www.lawsubscribed.com/subscribe2023-10-0654 min
Sonder UnionEp 5 - The Siren Song of LegacyWe're back with another episode of Sonder Union, where we explore people's stories just because people are fascinating. In this episode, we're joined by Chris Valdheims, who had a fantastic podcast of his own, Hypermemoir. Go find it right now on your podcast platform and hit subscribe.Chris has been on a journey of self-discovery for most of his adult life. And, yes, all of us are on a journey of self-discovery, but Chris has a story you need to hear.You can find Chris on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in...2023-09-251h 08
Sonder UnionEp. 4 - The Fine Art of Doing Epic S**tThis episode's guest Does Epic S**t, from running successful companies to competing in iron man races to sipping ginger ale in large social settings. Oh, and there's the song parodies (https://perfectparody.com/).I hope you enjoy my discussion with John Lindsey as much as I did. He's one of a kind, a fellow introvert comfortable on stage, a man who knows how to wear a wig.You can find John here (and only here, as he is otherwise a digital ghost): https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-lindsey-0bb6a3212/2023-09-141h 30
Sonder UnionEp. 3 - The Irish GoodbyeWell, this is embarrassing. In this episode of Sonder Union, you get a peek behind the scenes into the lunacy that has been the creation of this podcast, as two-thirds of the conversation I have with Lenor Marquis Segal failed to record.But the 25 minutes that I do have is pretty great! Lenor is one of my favorite writers on LinkedIn and is so good, she made me break one of my rules for Sonder Union in the third episode: no lawyers as guests.You can find Lenor here: https://www.linkedin.com...2023-08-2828 min
Sonder UnionEp. 2 - The Finite and the InfiniteLouis Colombo joins us for the second episode of Sonder Union. Louis is a fellow traveler of mine in many ways: we have faced (and continue to face) serious illnesses, death, and Hegel. We have an unflinching discussion of some pretty tough topics, with the gallows humor that you have to develop to fight through.This episode includes extensive discussion of serious illness, death, and suicide. So, if that's not your thing, you might want to skip this episode.You can find Louis at https...2023-08-131h 11
Sonder UnionEp. 1 - Digital Hauntings & Second SoulsWelcome to Sonder Union, a podcast whose sole purpose is to create the opportunity for human connection in a world so interested in projections of surface.We are joined in our inaugural episode by Jerry Bui, creator, digital forensics expert, and all-around fascinating dude. You can find him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerrybui/All music copyright © Owen McGrann, 2023. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit w...2023-07-3052 min
The Thriving Lawyers PodcastOwen McGrann, From BigLaw to Solo-PreneurshipMeet my new friend. Owen McGrann. A self-identified "Entrepreneur & Troublemaker" who manages not 1 but 2 successful small law firms. Learn how he got there after trying hard NOT to go to law school, making a go successful of it as a BigLaw associate, and navigating a health crisis that LITERALLY freed his mind and helped him re-establish his priorities. 2023-05-021h 26
The Free Lawyer82. How to Create the Law Practice You Are Excited to Work InOwen McGrann reinvented his legal career after overcoming a life-threatening health scare. Today he has built the law practice of his dreams, practicing law the way he chooses, creating synergy with his clients, and finding the balance he has always craved. In this dynamite episode, he explains how we can build the law practice we are excited to work in. Key takeaways:
-Hourly billing creates enormous stress on the attorneys and conflict with the clients
-The importance of keeping our priorities in order, remembering that our health and happiness are foremost
-The many...2023-02-1638 min
The Law EntrepreneurBeing Different in Practicing Law with Owen McGrannToday, my guest is Owen McGrann. Owen is a fellow solo practitioner, a small firm owner (in fact he owns two small firms), and a fellow guitarist. We will shed some light on how we view the practice of law, how it relates to our clients, and other issues, for those of you who are still struggling with trying to understand where that fits in in your practice. In this episode, Neil and Owen discuss:Building a law firm (and then a second law firm). Understanding what sales really is. Moving away from the bill...2022-10-1043 min
15 Minutes Share Your VoiceLeading an Authentic Law Firm With Owen McGrannOwen McGrann is the Founder and Managing Member of McGrann Law, a modest firm that works with ordinary people on estate planning and small businesses. His background includes work at law firms such as Picadio Sneath Miller & Norton, P.C. and Tucker Arensberg, P.C. Owen has been on the Pennsylvania Super Lawyers & Rising Stars list on six separate occasions for his expertise and hands-on work with the community. He received his JD from the University of Pittsburgh School of Law and his master’s in literature from Binghamton University. In this episode… It’s no sec...2022-09-1451 min
Business And BudsKeepin It Legal with Owen McGrannKeepin It Legal with Owen McGrann the lawyer of Michael Bryant2020-10-1556 min