Shows
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E12 | Season 2 Finale | Laurel Harduar Morano Interviews Patrice Gopo about 'Ripening Time'“It’s kind of like looking in a mirror and having it reflected back to you” –Laurel Harduar MoranoFor the final episode of Season 2, I’m so excited because my sister, Laurel Harduar Morano, is interviewing me about my latest picture book, Ripening Time! We are having a fun conversation about identity, family stories, and food, of course!Today’s Picture Book: Ripening Time by Patrice Gopo and illustrated by Carlos Vélez AguileraDr. Laurel Harduar Morano is the daughter of Jamaican immigrants and was born and raised in Anc...2025-05-0326 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E11 | Season 1 UpdatesIt’s Patrice here with a super fun episode. I thought it would be lovely to check in with some of my guests from Season 1 and see what they are up to. When last we spoke, many of them had new projects or fun events in the future, so today we’re going to hear the season 1 updates. Unfortunately, the show notes character limit will not allow me to link directly to all their websites, books, and season 1 episodes. Instead, you can find all that information here.____________________ Ripening Time, Patrice's 2nd picture book, relea...2025-04-2617 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E10 | Gabriele Davis and 'Our Joyful Noise'Gabriele Davis and Our Joyful Noise“The book honors those ancestors who struggled and sacrificed and stood up to make this family’s joy possible.” –Gabriele DavisToday we’re talking about sound and song and celebration of the joyful noises that fill our family’s lives. Today’s Picture Book: Our Joyful Noise written by Gabriele Davis and illustrated by Craig StanleyGabriele Davis welcomes the sounds, songs and rhythms that flow through her days in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut, where she writes, bik...2025-04-1922 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E9 | Azadeh Westergaard and 'The One & Only Googoosh'“The sense of loss of home, displacement, musical memories, losing family; I think all of those are things we can all relate to in different ways.” –Azadeh WestergaardToday we’re talking about community stories of loss, how music can connect us, immigration experiences, and understanding stories from the past. Today’s Picture Book: The One & Only Googoosh written and illustrated by Azadeh WestergaardAzadeh Westergaard is a NYC based Iranian-American picture book collector and book maker. She is the author and illustrator of The One & Only Googoosh: Iran’s Beloved Sup...2025-04-1223 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E8 | Melquea Smith and 'The Time Machine'“We are not taught how to apologize. We are not taught how to communicate. We are not taught how to meta communicate.” –Melquea SmithToday we’re talking about friendship conflict, setting the table for repairing harm, courageous communication, shame, making apologies, and restorative justice.Today’s Picture Book: The Time Machine illustrated by Melquea Smith and written Pauline David-SaxThroughout her illustrations, Melquea Smith encourages children to embrace the magic around them. While doing so, to unleash the long dormant childlike wonder in adults, and above all else, to not let...2025-04-0526 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E7 | Roohi Choudhry and 'Memory Garden' (written by Zohreh Ghahremani and illustrated by Susie Ghahremani)“It’s a sense of feeling seen and understood which is one of the big things we are all seeking.” –Roohi ChoudhryToday we’re talking the power of stories to help us feel seen, how the place where we are can return us to places in our memory, and how we might claim our own ancestors.Today’s Picture Book: Memory Garden written by Zohreh Ghahremani and illustrated by Susie GhahremaniRoohi Choudhry is a writer, teaching artist, and researcher who lives in Brooklyn, New York. Born in Pakistan and...2025-03-2931 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E6 | Shannon Gibney and 'We Miss You, George Floyd'“Trauma is multifaceted and moves through your body in different ways.” –Shannon GibneyAs we approach five years since the murder of George Floyd, we are talking today about trauma and processing trauma, creating space for people to feel, and everyone having a child within them.Today’s Picture Book: We Miss You, George Floyd by Shannon Gibney and illustrated by Leeya Rose JacksonShannon Gibney is a writer, educator, and activist. She is author of several books, including The Girl I Am, Was, and Never Will Be: A Speculati...2025-03-2223 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E5 | Marie Tang and 'Baba’s Peach Tree'“We know how much meaning and growth we can gain by putting things out into the world, such as gratitude.” –Marie TangToday we’re talking about gratitude and appreciation for what was and expressing gratitude to previous generations for sacrifices they made.Today’s Picture Book: Baba’s Peach Tree by Marie Tang and illustrated by Seo KimMarie Tang was born in Hong Kong, raised in New York City, and was a resident of Shanghai for over a decade. The unique characters and neon lights of the “Big City” have...2025-03-1523 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E4 | Nadia Alexis and 'Auntie Luce’s Talking Paintings' (written by Francie LaTour and illustrated by Ken Daley)“There’s a lot of room . . . for us to be more connected to ourselves, more connected to our culture.” –Nadia AlexisToday we’re talking with picture book enthusiast Nadia Alexis about finding our way back to old memories, connecting with our stories, and feeling seen.Today’s Picture Book: Auntie Luce’s Talking Paintings written by Francie LaTour and illustrated by Ken Daley Nadia Alexis, a poet, writer, and photographer from Harlem, is the author of Beyond the Watershed (CavanKerry Press, March 2025), a poetry and photography collection that was also a fina...2025-03-0818 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E3 | Valerie Bolling and 'I See Color'“To say that you don’t see [color] is first of all actually not true, but it also diminishes people because if you don’t see someone’s color—which color is really about race and culture—then that means you’re not seeing the person completely and you’re not acknowledging that racism actually exists.” –Valerie BollingToday we’re talking about seeing color, pursuing change, connecting with others, developing empathy, and seeing people completely.Today’s Picture Book: I See Color by Valerie Bolling and Kailei Pew and illustrated by Layli...2025-03-0124 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E2 | Janelle Harper and 'My Block Looks Like'Janelle Harper and My Block Looks Like“Your neighborhood has its own soundtrack.” –Janelle HarperToday we’re talking about feeling seen, connecting across generations, recalling what was important to you as a child, and celebrating the place where you grew up.Today’s Picture Book: My Block Looks Like by Janelle Harper and illustrated by Frank MorrisonJanelle Harper is a Bronx native who proudly carries her New York accent anywhere she goes. As a children’s book author, Janelle is passionate about repres...2025-02-2217 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S2E1 | Fabienne Doucet and 'Love is Still Winning/El Amor Siempre Triunfa'Fabienne Doucet and Love is Still Winning/El Amor Siempre Triunfa“Love is showing up for each other in these times of pain.” –Fabienne DoucetToday we’re talking about love triumphing over distressing situations, re-parenting ourselves, and amplifying the hope that things can be better. Today’s Picture Book: Love is Still Winning/El Amor Siempre Triunfa by Fabienne Doucet and illustrated by J de laVegaBorn in Spain, raised in Haiti, and migrating to the U.S. at the age of ten, Fabienne Do...2025-02-1524 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!Season 2 TrailerWelcome to Season 2 of Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups Too! New episodes release Saturdays beginning Saturday, February 15th. Book Mentions in this episode:Autumn Song: Essays on Absence by Patrice GopoRipening Time by Patrice Gopo and illustrated by Carlos Vélez Aguilera Other mentions in this episode:Inaugural Pattis Family Foundation Creative Arts Book AwardAuthor Janelle HarperIllustrator Melquea SmithAuthor Fabienne Doucet Find Patrice:2025-02-0804 min
Charlotte Readers PodcastYear-End Episode with the Storied Charlotte Blog, Publishing Tips, and Favorite 2023 ReadsIn this episode 371, we’re wrapping up a big year for the podcast in a big way. Special guest Mark West returns to share his highlights of the literary year in Charlotte. We’ll talk about takeaways from publishing nine–yes, nine–books on the podcast this year. And we also have our top reads for 2023.
Today’s Featured Topics
Act 1:
Writer, professor, and literary blogger Mark West, riding along with us as a co-host this episode, shares some of his favorite literary happenings from 2023, the backstory of his blog, and what he loves about the Charlo...2023-12-261h 29
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!Season 1 Reflection | Nyasha Gopo Interviews Patrice Gopo :)In this end-of-season bonus episode of Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups Too!, Nyasha Gopo, Patrice’s husband, hosts the podcast and asks Patrice her thoughts about this first season. Listen as Patrice reflects back and shares a couple exciting announcements!!Thank you for listening!! About Nyasha: Nyasha Gopo was born and raised in Zimbabwe before moving to South Africa where he earned a Bachelor of Commerce in Financial Accounting and a Post Graduate Diploma in Accounting, both from the University of Cape Town. Nyasha then went on to become a Ch...2023-06-0321 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E20 | Judy Allen Dodson and 'The Ashe Brothers: How Arthur and Johnnie Changed Tennis Forever'“We can give and share our gifts no matter where we are. No matter where we are in life, no matter what we are going through, we all have gifts to share.” –Judy Allen DodsonToday we’re talking the beauty and importance of sports, sibling love, and the reality of using our gifts to have an impact on others and our communities.Today’s Picture Book: The Ashe Brothers: How Arthur and Johnnie Changed Tennis Forever by Judy Allen Dodson and illustrated by David WilkersonJudy Allen Dodson is a librarian...2023-05-2723 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E19 | Patty Lyons and 'Something about Grandma' (written and illustrated by Tania de Regil)“We have to be very conscious about how we’re going to tell our stories to our children and our grandchildren.” –Patty LyonsToday we have a lovely discussion with picture-book enthusiast and librarian Patty Lyons about thinking about who was there for us, recognizing the importance of photographs, writing down the good moments, and seeing windows, mirrors, & sliding glass doors.Today’s Picture Book: Something about Grandma written and illustrated by Tania de RegilToday’s Guest: Patty Lyons is currently the Children’s Librarian at th...2023-05-2021 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E18 | Amanda Davis and 'Moonlight Memories'“Art can be a place of comfort and healing after loss.” and “Healing isn’t linear. It’s a journey that continues on.” –Amanda Davis | Join in today’s thoughtful and poignant conversation about grief, loss, and the power of art to help us heal. Today’s Picture Book: Moonlight Memories by Amanda Davis and illustrated by Michelle Jing ChanAmanda Davis is a teacher, artist, writer, and innovator who uses her words and pictures to light up the world with kindness. After losing her father at a young age, Amanda turned to art and writing...2023-05-1324 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E17 | Alliah L. Agostini and 'Big Tune: Rise of the Dancehall Prince'“It’s important for people to understand that there is more than one immigrant experience, there is more than one Jamaican-American experience. There are so many.” –Alliah L. AgostiniToday’s conversation is filled with joy, energy, and tons of fun!!!! Alliah and I chat about courage, the early 90s, the multitude of immigrant experiences, writing in rhyme, and what it can mean to see yourself in a book!Today’s Picture Book: Big Tune: Rise of the Dancehall Prince by Alliah L. Agostini and illustrated by Shamar Knight-JusticeAlliah L. Agostini...2023-05-0625 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E16 | Kamalani Hurley and 'Unspeakable' (written by Carole Boston Weatherford and illustrated by Floyd Cooper)“We don’t ignore the past. We live with the past every day. And so this idea of ignoring difficult past subjects really doesn’t make too much sense for me. How will you learn if you don’t talk about it?” –Kamalani HurleyListen in as Kamalani advocates for the importance of speaking about hard topics, recognizing your identity and the identity of those around you, knowing your culture, and telling the stories that history wants to erase. A thoughtful conversation filled with powerful commentary and reflection.Today’s Picture Book: Unspeakable: The Tulsa Race Mas...2023-04-2923 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E15 | Jenin Mohammed and 'Song in the City'“It does feel like when you’re reading a picture book for the first time, there is a stop in time.” –Jenin MohammedToday we talk about the reality that life doesn’t allow everyone the time to face a “wall of text,” the process of bringing a book to illustrated life, what it means to discover something and try to share that with others, and the value of building connections through sharing a book.Today’s Picture Book: Song in the City illustrated by Jenin Mohammed and written by Daniel Bernstrom2023-04-2220 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E14 | Shirin Shamsi and 'Zahra’s Blessing: A Ramadan Story'“Picture books are a way of connecting our human family and making the world kinder and more empathetic. I really hope we can make the world better by sharing stories with everyone.” –Shirin ShamsiListen in as Shirin Shamsi talks about unexpected joys in the creative process (despite the waiting), the importance of sharing family stories, the reality of displacement, and so much more. This conversation is truly a blessing, and, at the end, Shirin shares important thoughts about her second picture book, The Moon From Dehradun: A Story of Partition.Today’s Picture Book:2023-04-1525 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E13 | Abbigail Glen of Shelves Bookstore & 'Ruby Finds a Worry' (by Tom Percival)“Picture books show us is that there was a point in all of our lives where you were allowed to just figure things out. Is there room in your life now to give yourself that same grace?” —Abbigail Glen of Shelves Bookstore The work of identifying our worries isn’t easy. Join us for this thoughtful conversation about why naming our worries matters.Today’s Picture Book: Ruby Finds a Worry by Tom Percival Today’s Guest: Abbigail Glen of Shelves BookstoreAbbigail...2023-04-0820 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E12 | Gloria Amescua and 'Child of the Flower-Song People'“I hope [this story] helps people appreciate where they came from and who they are and being proud of that . . . Adults also feel, ‘I can be proud of my origins. I can be proud of who I am and what I have to give to the world.’” –Gloria AmescuaListen in as Gloria talks about a story finding you long before it’s time to write a story, the desire we have to be affirmed in our experiences, the radical possibility of building book clubs around picture books, and, of course, so much more!Today’s Pictu...2023-04-0125 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E11 | Holly Hatam and 'A Good Deed Can Grow'“You don’t have to have this huge good deed that you have to do. Something that is not obtainable. A good deed is just opening a door or saying “hello” or helping someone with their bags . . . I wanted to show that a good deed can be so small and make someone’s day so much better.” –Holly HatamJoin us for this joyful conversation about finding magic, the power of even the tiniest good deeds, planting surprises in the forest, and other moments of delight!!Today’s Picture Book: A Good Deed Can Grow illustra...2023-03-2521 min
The Blue Room with MaryAnn McKibben DanaS02 E04 Hope Travels in StoryToday, we continue our series of conversations about Hope: A User’s Manual.Section four of the book is Hope Travels in Story. If you’ve read the book, we hope this conversation will enhance that section. If you haven’t read it, the conversation stands on its own.Today, MaryAnn’s guest is Patrice Gopo. Patrice is an award-winning essayist and the author of books for adults and children. Her essay collection, All the Colors We Will See, was Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers selection. Her debut picture book, All the Places We Call Hom...2023-03-2428 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E10 | Terry Catasús Jennings and 'The Little House of Hope'“Hope is the beginning of progress. Hope is the beginning of moving forward.” –Terry Catasús JenningsToday we’re talking about immigration experiences, seeing past labels, and the power of hope with Terry Catasús Jennings.Today’s Picture Book: The Little House of Hope by Terry Catasús Jennings and illustrated by Raúl Colón Terry Catasús Jennings is a Cuban-American writer who immigrated to the United States after her father was jailed in Cuba by Fidel Castro’s government. She was twelve at the time and knew no English. Th...2023-03-1825 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E9 | Maria Marianayagam and 'Watercress' (written by Andrea Wang and illustrated by Jason Chin)Join us for this touching, poignant, and important conversation about family stories, shame, understanding our history, engaging our humanity, and the power of rewriting the stories we tell with picture book enthusiast Maria Marianayagam. Today’s Picture Book: Watercress by Andrea Wang and illustrated by Jason Chin.Maria Marianayagam is a Sri Lankan-Canadian children's book author. She was born in India and grew up in Nigeria and four provinces across Canada. Maria is a former chemical engineer who fell in love with children’s books (again!) after becoming an Umma (mom). Maria enjoys...2023-03-1120 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E8 | Michelle Nott and 'Teddy, Let’s Go'Listen in as Michelle talks about love and trust, the emergence of stories, and the ways thinking about first moments can connect with others.“Just by pure design, a picture book is for all ages, for all generations.” –Michelle NottToday’s Picture Book: Teddy, Let’s Go by Michelle Nott and illustrated by Nahid KazemiMichelle Nott is a bilingual, dual-nationality author who finds inspiration in her family, her travels, and particularly in American and French literature, culture, and art. Born in the United States, Michelle has also lived in F...2023-03-0424 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E7 | Alicia D. Williams and 'The Talk'“To see the beauty, though, to see the beauty of a Black family in a picture book and how they all care for him in such a gentle way.” –Alicia D. WilliamsListen in as Alicia D. shares the origins of this story (it CHOSE her!), the joy she sees in this book, and the way this story can connect adult readers.Today’s Picture Book: The Talk by Alicia D. Williams and illustrated by Briana Mukodiri UchenduAlicia D likes chunky guacamole, shiny things, dancing, good stories, and great jo...2023-02-2529 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E6 | Olugbemisola Rhuday-Perkovich and 'Mae Makes a Way'Today we talk the glory of hats, the beauty of using our gifts, and the impact we can have on another person’s life. “Activism is not just one thing. There’s no one way to be an activist. There’s no one way to serve your community. Your gifts can be used as they are.” –Olugbemisola Rhuday-PerkovichToday’s Picture Book: Mae Makes a Way by Olugbemisola Rhuday-Perkovich and illustrated by Andrea PippinsOlugbemisola Rhuday-Perkovich is the author of several children’s books, including 8th Grade Superzero, It Doesn't Take A Ge...2023-02-1822 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E5 | Des Cooper and 'Nothing Special'“When we left, that word ‘home’ became very complicated.” –Des CooperListen in as Des talks about how picture books are art and exist on multiple levels, and how what might appear as a simple story can hold even more meaning for an adult reader.Today’s Picture Book: Nothing Special by Des Cooper and illustrated by Bec SloaneDesiree is a 2015 Kresge Artist Fellow, former attorney, and Pulitzer Prize-nominated journalist who writes extensively about racial and gender equality. Her debut collection of flash fiction, Know the Mother, won numerous awards, including th...2023-02-1122 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E4 | Adrea Theodore and 'A History of Me'Join us for this thoughtful and important conversation about telling a different narrative, considering what characteristics we might inherit from our families, creating space for stories that might connect us, and more!“You can see forward. You can see who are. But at the same time if you think about it, it helps you look back. If you look in the mirror, you can see behind you.” –Adrea TheodoreToday’s Picture Book: A History of Me by Adrea Theodore and illustrated by Erin K. RobinsonAdrea is a mom, ped...2023-02-0425 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E3 | Carter Higgins and 'Big and Small and In-Between'Join us for a fabulous conversation about lists, journaling prompts, shared stories, and so much more!“Don’t be afraid to collect picture books as a grown-up who has no connection to children. That doesn’t make you strange or weird. That makes you a curator of really beautiful art and a collector of stories.” –Carter HigginsToday’s Picture Book: Big and Small and In-Between by Carter Higgins and Illustrated by Daniel MiyaresCarter is the author of many books for young readers, including Everything You Need for a Treehouse...2023-01-2821 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E2 | Jyoti Rajan Gopal and 'American Desi'Today we’re talking celebrating identity, straddling multiple cultures, and being seen for all the parts of who we are with Jyoti Rajan Gopal! | “Connection is created through curiosity and conversation.” –Jyoti Rajan GopalToday’s Picture Book: American Desi by Jyoti Rajan Gopal and illustrated by Supriya KelkarJyoti Rajan Gopal is a writer, mom and Kindergarten teacher. Growing up, she lived in Thailand, Indonesia, Myanmar, India and China. She now lives in New York, in a quirky old Victorian in Yonkers, with her husband, where they raised their two daughters...2023-01-2126 min
Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!S1E1 | Tameka Fryer Brown and 'Twelve Dinging Doorbells'Today we’re talking family, fun, food traditions, and love with Tameka Fryer Brown!“I think picture books minister to us. In all kinds of ways. Not only do they bring joy, but they also can encourage healing. They can make us feel seen.” –Tameka Fryer BrownToday’s Picture Book: Twelve Dinging Doorbells by Tameka Fryer Brown and illustrated by Ebony GlennTameka is a picture book author who writes to sow seeds of self-love, pride, connectivity, and inclusion in the hearts of children. Her books (Brown Baby Lullaby, M...2023-01-1419 min
Understand Your Bible | Bible Verses, Inductive Bible Study, Biblical Encouragement, Bible Study Method, Scripture Study ToolsChanging Focus with Patrice GopoPatrice Gopo helps us deal with the anxiety that comes from change and stay curious about what God is doing in our life. Isaiah 43:19a (NIV)“See, I am doing a new thing!” https://livesteadyon.com/Email Angie at: steadyonpodcast@gmail.comFacebook: @livesteadyonInstagram: @angiebaughman421Grab freebies and subscribe to the weekly Steady On newsletter at: https://livesteadyon.com/live-steady-on-newsletter/ Looking for something not listed? It’s probably here: https://linktr.ee/livesteadyon https://w...2023-01-0445 minPicture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!A Few Stories While You Wait . . .I won’t be releasing the first official episode of this podcast until sometime in January 2023. However, I just wrapped up recording my first couple of interviews. These were great conversations about how picture books can create connection. But while you wait for the first show, I thought I’d share a couple stories about my grown-up experience with picture books because sharing stories is something I love to do!Picture Books mentioned in this bonus episode:I Love My Hair! by Natasha Anastasia Tarpley and illustrated by E. B. LewisAll the Plac...2022-12-1006 min
The Hope Prose PodcastEpisode 77 - Pretty Little Pieces and Carmen SchoberSend us a textIn today’s episode, Carmen Schober joins Tara and Alex to talk about her newest novel Pretty Little Pieces (releasing Dec. 6th, 2022) about the next Joanna Gaines. A mother of three, Rocky enthusiast, and perpetual project starter, Carmen writes clean, faith-based contemporary romance. Her MMA-themed debut After She Falls is available wherever you buy books. Listen in to hear what inspired her to write a story about a celebrity home designer, if a writing degree is necessary for being a successful writer, the redemption in brokenness, and her journey to publication. TR...2022-12-0643 minPicture Books Are for Grown-Ups, Too!Welcome to Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups Too!Welcome to Picture Books Are for Grown-Ups Too! hosted by essayist and picture book author Patrice Gopo. Picture books aren’t just for children. Picture books are for grown-ups too! In this podcast, Patrice speaks with picture book authors, illustrators, and enthusiasts about how these stories contribute to human thriving. Discover how picture books can affirm our experiences, introduce us to new perspectives, serve as conversation starters, foster meaningful reflection, and give us words to make sense of the world!Ultimately, Patrice believes you’re never too old for a great picture book AND these tiny...2022-12-0303 minThe Hope Prose PodcastEpisode 76 - The Art of The Personal Essay & More with Patrice GopoSend us a textIn today’s episode, Patrice Gopo comes to the table with tender wisdom and advice for those looking to break into the creative non-fiction space. As an essayist, Patrice often returns to themes of race, immigration, identity formation, and belonging within her writing. Her essay collection, All the Colors We Will See, was a Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers selection and her debut picture book, All the Places We Call Home, was inspired by one of the essays in her collection. Listen in to hear how she discovered the art of...2022-11-2244 min