Shows
Cultivate the OrdinaryShaped by the Places We Live and Our Need to Be RootedIn this episode of Cultivate the Ordinary Podcast, host Travis explores the themes of rootedness, geography, and personal history as he reflects on his time growing up on a farm in North Dakota. He shares on the importance of place in shaping identity and the innate human longing for connection to our origins. Through personal anecdotes and reading book excerpts, Travis discusses how experiences in various landscapes influence our character and sense of belonging. He also emphasizes the need for stability in a fast-paced world and the profound impact that specific places can have on our souls.2025-04-1126 minCultivate the OrdinaryBeing Astonished and Telling About ItIn this episode of Cultivate the Ordinary, Jessie and Travis explore some exciting things going on in their lives and how they're finding inspiration in these things. They talk some about the current journey of Travis's brother Jeremy, who has faced significant challenges due to a traumatic brain injury (in 2009). They also share some cool stories of all the things he is doing to bring joy and hope to the world despite limited abilities.The conversation also highlights the joy of music through Travis learning to play the ukulele, the development of a documentary about Jeremy's life...2025-03-2727 minCultivate the OrdinaryWhy Beauty Should Matter More in Your Daily LifeIn this episode of Cultivate the Ordinary Podcast, hosts Travis and Jessie explore the theme of beauty through personal experiences, reflections on a recent cruise, and the evolution of their understanding of beauty over time. They discuss moments of astonishment, the connection between beauty and art, and how beauty can serve as a bridge to deeper understanding and connection with the world around us.Travis and Jessie discuss the profound impact of beauty in our lives, discussing how it can inspire, captivate, and connect us to deeper truths. They delve into the relationship between beauty and art...2025-03-0445 minCultivate the OrdinaryThe Power of Gratitude and How It Can Change Our LivesIn this episode of Cultivate the Ordinary, host Travis discusses the transformative power of gratitude, especially in the face of personal struggles. He shares his family's recent challenges, including health scares involving his brother, and how these experiences have deepened his appreciation for life's gifts. Through a heartfelt story about his favorite band Carbon Leaf, Travis illustrates the importance of connection and gratitude in difficult times. Times that God is nearer to us than we often feel, and orchestrates gifts and unexpected moments to encourage us in our difficulties. He also shares about the discipline of trying...2025-02-1924 minCultivate the OrdinaryLiving Fully Alive and Being Formed by New HabitsIn this episode of Cultivate the Ordinary, hosts Travis and Jessie discuss their excitement for the new year, reflecting on personal goals and experiences. They explore the concept of bucket lists, the psychology behind New Year's resolutions, and the importance of identity in forming habits. The conversation emphasizes the need for both motivation and structure in achieving personal growth and setting meaningful goals for 2025. In this conversation, Jessie and Travis explore the themes of personal growth, the importance of influential voices, and the necessity of finding what makes one come alive. They discuss the challenges of burnout...2025-01-2829 minCultivate the OrdinarySeason 1 Finale: Seeing the World Through Imaginative and Grateful Eyes with Asher VangsnesIn this season finale episode, Travis is joined by his son Asher to talk about curiosity and creativity. Asher sees the world so imaginatively and is full of curiosity. He's also brings the gift of gratitude wherever he is and Travis talks about the ways Asher teaches him as his son.The conversation steers around Asher's insights into drawing and creating and ends with questions around his favorite things. This has been a great season of inspiring people, stories, and lives that showcase curiosity, wonder, and looking for God's presence in the everyday. Additional resources...2024-09-1023 minCultivate the OrdinaryThe Keys to Unlocking a Stronger Friendship in Your MarriageIn this episode, Travis and Jess talk about cultivating friendship as a centerpiece to healthy marriages. Travis shares about the importance of humor as a tool that connects, heals, and helps us in all kinds of ways. Jess talks about activities that promote connection, togetherness, and friendship. They both discuss a marriage resource and training they've received through the Gottman Institute that has been immensely helpful in unlocking stuck patterns in their own marriage. They unpack some of the principles from these resources including the biggest predictors of divorce. They share the antidotes to unhealthy patterns and...2024-09-0448 minCultivate the OrdinaryExperiencing Grace and Goodness in the Awful Agony of DementiaIn this episode, Travis shares about his journey caregiving for his dad when he had late stage dementia. Alzheimers and dementia are brutal diseases that are rapidly rising globally. So many people know a loved one personally dealing with this tragic struggle. Travis also shares about the beautiful moments and lessons learned that can still be gained if we look more closely and pay attention. Travis' shares how God in his grace gave moments of gifts and that even as his dad lost nearly all functionality he still graced the world with the power of his smile.2024-08-2731 minCultivate the OrdinaryReflections on Overcoming Adversity and Uncertainty with Jay VangsnesIn this episode, Travis and Jess are joined by their oldest son Jay to reflect on life before Jay heads off to college. They talk about fun memories and Jay's unique personality and place in the family. Jay has always been full of charisma and is a natural leader wherever he goes. Travis shares a story about a powerful moment Jay was there for him when he lost his dad. Jess also shares a heartfelt story of the first gift Jay gave her before she became his mom.Jay has overcome a lot of adversity...2024-08-2041 minCultivate the OrdinaryHarnessing Our Grief and Cherishing the Lives of Those We’ve LostIn this episode, Travis talks about facing grief head on and holding space for grieving the loss of loved ones in different ways and with all our senses. He shares about how the loss of his dad over two years ago has been impacting him lately. As hard as grief is, Travis sees it as a conduit of connection to God and others and as a gift that helps us remember those we've lost in sometimes profound new ways.Travis shares some ideas around ways we can cultivate regular rhythms to embrace our grief and also bask...2024-08-1332 minCultivate the OrdinarySlaying Shame, Smashing Stigmas, and Mending Mental Health with Dana AdamsIn this episode, Travis and Jess are joined by Dana Adams ( LPC-A) to talk mental health, wellness, and soul care. Dana is a licensed, professional counselor associate and has a passion for mentoring women.Dana is very real and honest about her own story when it comes to her own mental health journey and shares her story of finding wholeness and spiritual transformation. Dallas Willard has been an enormous encouragement and teacher for her when it comes to understanding God's redemptive work in our hearts and stories. Dana talks about eventually becoming a counselor and...2024-08-0656 minCultivate the OrdinaryFinding Ordinary Inspiration For Writing Fiction with Leah BusboomIn this episode, Travis is joined by Leah Busboom to talk about her writing journey, creativity, and insights around creating and making things, much of which involves courage and just trying. Leah has become an award winning Indie author on Amazon for her fictional romance novels. Interestingly though, she graduated with an MS in Physics and has worked extensively in tech as she was with IBM for 22 years. She continues in an important role in the tech/operations side of America's Kids Belong in the space of foster care. Their conversation involves looking at the fascinating dichotomy...2024-07-3049 minCultivate the OrdinaryLaughter, Love, and Life Lessons From Five Year Old Dakota VangsnesYou are in for a treat on this one and a bit of a wild wide with our 5 year old guest. Travis and Jess are joined by their youngest kid "Dak" for a conversation around things like: wonder, Ninja Turtles, scary moments, funny sounds, and playing outside.Dak is full of life and imagination and has never met a stranger in his whole life. You'll hear some funny stories, unique insights and an unexpected prayer from this little guy. It's a strong reminder how much kids are a gift to us all and that their joy, wonder...2024-07-2321 minCultivate the OrdinaryIntegrating Faith, Healing, and Waking Up to Belovedness with Julie DotsonIn this episode, Jess is joined by her mom Julie Dotson to talk about her story and journey of navigating suffering and abuse as a child. Despite this, Julie embarked courageously to find healing and has really seen God's goodness and nearness throughout her life. Waking up to her belovedness as a deeply loved child of God is a big theme she talks about. Julie also talks about ways she's learned to put God first and how she's cultivating the habit of communing in his presence in ordinary moments in the everyday. She is actively involved in...2024-07-161h 12Cultivate the OrdinaryLearning About Bugs and Seeing God's Grandeur in Nature with Jim DotsonIn this episode, Travis is joined by his father-in-law Jim Dotson to talk about his love of bugs and seeing God in nature. Jim has a deep love of nature and still at age 71 studies it with childlike curiosity. He is an entomologist (insect expert) and worked for many years for Bayer's crop science and pest control departments. He talks about his journey of studying bugs professionally and seeing God's divine handiwork in the complexity of their designs. As the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins once said, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."Jim shares...2024-07-0942 minCultivate the OrdinaryUnderstanding Chronic Pain and the Mind-Body ConnectionIn this episode, Jess, a trauma-informed resilience coach and a living testament to overcoming mind-body syndrome and chronic pain patterns shares her experiences in the world of chronic pain and its psycho-somatic nature. Travis shares a funny story about his “pet wheel.”Jess provides answers to the most pressing questions surrounding chronic pain and mind-body syndrome. From the impact of stress on our bodies to the common personality traits that contribute to chronic pain, offers valuable insights and statistics to help listeners gain a deeper understanding of this complex condition. She first learned of this research from Dr. J...2024-07-0547 minCultivate the OrdinaryAn Unlikely Story of Healing From Chronic Pain with Danny SmithIn this episode, Danny Smith joins Travis and Jess to talk about a really common experience so many of us face--chronic pain. Danny shares his personal experiences and story around suffering from debilitating chronic back pain for years. He tried everything to help his back find relief and was at the point of total despair and desperation when he heard about an intriguing book written by a physician named Dr. John Sarno. Sarno was a pioneering researcher in the area of TMS and worked extensively to study the mind/body connection to chronic pain. Observing that stress, anxiety, anger...2024-07-021h 00Cultivate the OrdinaryFinding the Right Balance Between Serving and Self Care with Jared and Sarah McCroryIn this episode, Travis and Jess are joined by Sarah and Jared McCrory to talk about everything from soul care to seeking the easy yoke of Jesus to discovering new purpose and taking courageous risks of faith.They tell relatable stories of wrestling with the trap of a faith identity rooted in performance for God instead of resting in our belovedness as children of God. They also share stories about their journey from being burned out missionaries (in over their heads in Pakistan) to finding health, wholeness, and new purpose in their everyday now.They...2024-06-251h 05Cultivate the Ordinary"The Art of Stability" and Becoming More Present to Jesus with Rusty McKieIn this episode, Travis and Jess are joined by pastor and ministry leader Rusty McKie to talk about his upcoming book releasing July 16th, pre-order here: The Art of Stability: How Staying Present Changes Everything Available on Amazon (Digital only)Rusty is an author, pastor, trauma informed coach, and spiritual director. He's a contributor to the Gospel Coalition and founder of Steadfast Ministries where he helps leaders survive and thrive in ministry. Rusty authored the book Sabbatical, and he is also the director of men’s discipleship at his church in Central Florida and hosts Th...2024-06-1851 minCultivate the OrdinaryBecoming More Aware, Resilient, and Hopeful with Jessie VangsnesIn this episode, Travis interviews Jess about her journey of helping people find wholeness and healing in their lives. As an artist, Jess has a great gift of seeing possibility and beauty in places others may not. Her deep compassion and empathy for others, coupled with her hopeful and creative idealism, make her really skilled in helping people find hope in the places in their lives and stories where they've all but abandoned it. She's a relationship coach (Marriage and Enneagram and Trauma certified) and you can learn more HERE about becoming a client. Jess...2024-06-1146 minCultivate the OrdinarySetting Boundaries and Building Security in Marriage with Christa HardinIn this episode, Christa Hardin (MA Counseling) joins Travis and Jess again to talk marriage and ways we can become healthier as individuals and within our marriages. Christa helps us unpack what healthy boundaries are, how to establish them for ourselves, for our marriages, and finally in community. Cultivating the ordinary in marriage happens in small conversations and daily micro changes. Christa shares very vulnerably about her own marriage and how she helps couples find a good balance with their unique boundaries in marriage. If you are feeling frustrated and anxious when it comes to your marriage, or you...2024-06-0441 minCultivate the OrdinaryFrom Valleys to Mountain Peaks: Honoring Our Unique Needs in Marriage with Christa HardinIn this episode, Travis and Jess are joined by Christa Hardin (MA Counseling) to talk marriages and relationships. She brings wise perspective on the various stages of marriages and speaks into the common reality of so many couples feeling they have lost their glow, or spark. Using a mountain analogy, she walks us through the basics needs of relationships all the way up to the mountain top of joy, hope, and purpose in marriage. Christa gives sound counsel for those of us who are currently in a darker place and just can't seem to see the hope. We hope...2024-05-2841 minCultivate the OrdinaryKindling Creativity and Coming Alive with Artist Tamara BrownIn this episode, professional artist Tamara Brown joins Travis and Jess and shares her inspiring story of becoming a self-made artist and entrepreneur after leaving the corporate world. Her unlikely journey led her to gaining a licensed partnership in 2011 with a major national greeting card company and her designs were featured on cards in Walmart, Target, and Bed, Bath, and Beyond. Today Tamara owns a successful art and design business, Tamara Brown Art, where she also does custom work.Growing up in Charleston, SC Tamara describes being immersed in a place full of vibrant textures and colors...2024-05-2141 minCultivate the OrdinaryFoster Care: An Often Unseen Social Crisis That Needs Your AttentionIn this episode, Travis and Jess talk all things foster care in light of May being National Foster Care Awareness Month. They both work for the national org, America's Kids Belong whose mission is to improve the outcomes and experiences for kids in foster care. Travis and Jess are former foster and adoptive parents and are very passionate in helping others discover their "why" to get engaged in this issue. There is a vast shortage of foster families. There is a vast shortage of those supporting foster families. We can all do better. We need to because lives and...2024-05-1455 minCultivate the OrdinaryBeauty Unveiled: Illuminating Our Ordinary Through Art, Nature, and Friendship with Michelle WegnerTravis and Jess are joined by Michelle Wegner to discuss the topic of beauty. They talk about beauty and its relationship to God, our souls, and why we need beauty in our lives. There's a fascinating connection between beauty, grace, and truth that the three also discuss. As the Benedictines say, "Beauty is truth shining into being." Michelle serves as the Director of Soul Care and Spiritual Formation at KC Underground in Shawnee, Kansas. She is the owner/founder of Illuminate the Ordinary, a venture aimed at illuminating lives through art, beauty, and soul friendship. She is...2024-05-071h 01Cultivate the OrdinarySeeing More Clearly When Your Eyes Become Dim, Disoriented, and DespairingMany of us long to escape our difficult lives and the contexts we live in. We wish we could see things with the joy and child like wonder we used to have. Marcel Proust once said, "The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." Travis and Jess discuss the things that cloud our eyesight and what it means to have new and "shiny eyes." Travis talks about the vision behind writing his book, Shiny Eyes: Seeing Better Through the Lenses of Joy, Tears, Beauty, and Hope. Towards the end of the...2024-05-0233 minCultivate the OrdinaryFinding Meaning in Our Stories Through the Words of Others with Bob HardingIn this episode, Travis and Jess engage with Bob Harding on a fun and lively conversation around seeing the world and finding meaning in our stories through quotes. Bob is the pastor at CrossLife Church in Spartanburg, SC. He wrote the foreword to Travis' book Shiny Eyes: Seeing Better Through the Lenses of Joy, Tears, Beauty, and Hope. He and Travis have a huge love of quotes and talk about why this is for each of them. They also discuss some of their favorite quotes around the topics of wonder, adventure, the corruption of power, understanding our...2024-04-2357 minCultivate the OrdinaryEvery Moment Sacred: Inspiring Insights From Firefighter and Pastor Jeremy SparksIn this episode, bi-vocational pastor, Jeremy Sparks joins Travis on a thought provoking conversation around Jeremy's unique vantage of seeing the world through the lenses of being both a pastor and firefighter. These two roles remind Jeremy everyday just how fleeting life is. The two discuss Jeremy's vision and heart for the church he planted 10 years ago in South Carolina. They also talk about Jeremy's work as a fire fighter and some of what that world entails. Jeremy shares about the bi-directional inspiration and influence these two very different vocations have on one another for him. His...2024-04-1658 minCultivate the OrdinaryHoly Hospitality: Creating Spaces of Welcoming, Beauty, and Safety with Kaylene DerksenIn this episode, Travis and Jess talk all facets of hospitality with their friend and President of the Soul Care Institute, Kaylene Derksen. There's plenty of laughs at the outset as the conversation steers around Northern accents, cows, and reminiscing about growing up on farms in the upper Midwest. Kaylene and her husband Jimm are gifted in the area of hospitality and see this as a space we can all learn to grow more in. Kaylene powerfully describes "the heart of hospitality" and how God created the world in all its original beauty and goodness as an...2024-04-091h 17Cultivate the OrdinaryDiscerning God's Presence and Purpose in Your Story Through Spiritual Direction with Steve Smith (Part 2)Travis and Jess host Steve Smith again in this part 2 episode, where they talk about the ministry of spiritual direction. At its core, spiritual direction is about companioning with someone who helps discern where God has been and is at work in one's life through intentional listening and prayer. It's really less about "direction" and more about being a witness to someone's life and story as a "soul friend." Spiritual direction is about helping someone care for their soul. It's being asked as Steve often does, "What's happening in you as you are living your outer life?"...2024-04-0156 minCultivate the OrdinarySoul Care and Learning to Live the Abundant Life of Jesus with Steve Smith (Part 1)In this episode, Travis and Jess interview their good friend and mentor Steve Smith. After years of relentlessly chasing the intoxication of results and "success" in ministry as a pastor, Steve was beyond burnout at a large church in 1996. It was then that he received the life giving guidance and soul care direction from his mentor, Dallas Willard (beloved philosopher, writer, and theologian). After regaining his footing, Steve had a newfound energy, hope, and purpose. He and his wife Gwen embarked on a new journey into the world of soul care where they've helped ministry and marketplace...2024-03-2657 minCultivate the OrdinaryOvercoming Tragedies: Joy, Worship, and Contentment with Serena SalmansIn this episode, Travis and Jess engage their friend Serena Salmans on a conversation that centers around joy and contentment through tragedy and adversity. Serena suffered a traumatic brain injury in high school and talks about dramatically feeling God's providence and presence in the midst of those hard days.They also talk about foster care and the difficulties and joys of being foster parents. Uncertainty is a reality for every foster parent and there were many twists and turns in their journey, which finally ended in adoption. Serena goes on to share about her difficult...2024-03-1956 minCultivate the OrdinaryPoetry and the Power of Our Words with Sahn DoveIn this episode, Sahn Dove, aka "Sahn the Poet," joins Travis and Jess on the podcast in a conversation on words, poetry, and insights about her spoken word craft. Sahn's biggest source of inspiration is her husband, Dove Dupree, who is also a spoken word poet and musician. She's also been deeply influenced and inspired by spoken word artists, Jay Ward and Ayanna Albertson-Gay. Sahn talks about her writing journey and finding her voice. Never imagining that someday that little girl with a gift for words and writing would someday be on stages performing her written art...2024-03-1251 minCultivate the OrdinaryHow Someone With No Voice Is Being Heard the Loudest with Dan Vangsnes (Part 2)In this episode, Travis hosts his brother Dan for a part two conversation. This time the topic centers around their brother Jeremy's life and the past and present stories of him deeply impacting others despite having no voice. Jeremy suffered a severe traumatic brain injury in a car accident in 2009 and has not been able to speak. He is able to communicate by moving his leg/arm to spell or through using an assistive communication device. They unpack some interesting and dramatic stories of how God has providentially used Jeremy's joy and his message of hope to...2024-03-0552 min
We Are All HumanAdvocating for Others:Join me as we continue on the journey of life purpose in episode 4, as I speak with Travis and Jessie Vangsnes. Travis is a published writer and Jessie an artist, both combining these talents to advocate for others and help them explore the beauty found in the depths of life. Jessie is also a certified trauma-informed coach specializing in emotional intelligence, personality patterns, and trauma awareness. Thank you for reading We Are All Human. This post is public so feel free to share it.The couple collectively has been trained to use the...2024-03-021h 11Cultivate the OrdinaryGlimmering Hope in the Dark Shadows of Suffering with Dan Vangsnes (Part 1)In this episode, Travis hosts his brother Dan as they look back at the journey of suffering and adversity that their family has endured since 2009. That summer three of Travis' brothers were in a tragic rollover car wreck in Montana that changed the trajectory of their lives and the family's forever. Jeremy was originally pronounced dead and then given a bleak prognosis after suffering a traumatic brain injury. Dan was also fighting for his life in a separate ICU at the time. Their dad, Mark, led the family with a heroic charge into the darkness of the unknown and...2024-02-261h 19Cultivate the OrdinaryWoodworking, Wonder, and Worshipping God Through Our Gifts with Everett ConawayIn this episode, Travis engages in a fascinating conversation with Everett Conaway on the art of woodworking and the themes of beauty, creativity, and wonder. Everett also shares thoughts on how his faith converges with his craft and how he sees/feels God's presence in the workshop. The two also discuss worshipping God through our gifts and imaging him in small acts of creating things. Everett shares about how his woodworking hobby grew into a small business where he now creates everything from small custom gifts to custom furniture of all kinds (check it out below). There's...2024-02-2055 minCultivate the OrdinaryAdventures in Travel and the Misadventures of Buying a Greyhound BusIn this episode, Travis and Jess have a conversation around travel and discuss the fun of seeing new places and experiencing new things. They talk about how these experiences also lead us to cultivate more wonder and curiosity as we journey into the unknown. You'll hear about the time Travis bought a Greyhound bus off Ebay and how that turned out. They share about a recent cross country trip and about some lessons learned along the way. Additional resources from Travis and Jess:Guided Pace website: resources for coaching, soul care, and spiritual retreat offerings2024-02-1634 minCultivate the OrdinaryStories, Songwriting, and Sparks of Creativity with Danny Smith of WasperjawsIn this episode, Travis and Jess talk with their good friend Danny Smith-lead singer/songwriter for the band Wasperjaws. They reminisce on meeting one another over a decade ago while working at a children's home in South Carolina. Danny talks about the story behind Wasperjaws' name and the adventures of forming a local four piece band as a fun side project with his wife Ashley and friends.Danny shares an amazing story involving their newest album getting shared by one of members of The Avett Brothers on Instagram. The three talk about the creative process, the art...2024-02-0955 minCultivate the OrdinaryStuck Like Glue: Connecting and Creating Security in MarriageIn this episode, Travis and Jess discuss marriage and what it means to seek better connection in the everyday together. Jess shares what she finds really beautiful lately and the answer surprised Travis. They talk about what it looks like to "live unhurried" and be more present. They also share about ways to repair and restore connection following conflicts. They give some really easy and practical tools that will help you move through conflicts and find each other in the everyday. Mentioned in this podcast:Nate Bargatze on marriage fightsBooks:...2024-02-0543 minCultivate the OrdinaryWhen Sparks Fly: Navigating Marriage Conflicts With Resilience**This is the first of a two part series on conflict and connection in relationships. In this episode, Travis and Jess (trauma informed, Enneagram and Marriage coaches) share honestly about their own struggles when it comes to navigating conflict in healthy ways in their marriage. They talk about the three ways people generally respond to conflict. After this, they unpack the three common core stories that impact every conflict. They also discuss the stages of every healthy relationship and share some additional tools and resources they are using to try in grow in this area. ...2024-01-3135 minCultivate the OrdinaryKeys to Setting Better Goals and Creating Life Changing HabitsIn this episode, our discussion centers around the topic of New Year's resolutions (and lofty goals) and why up to 80% of them fail for most of us. Travis and Jessie talk about their own New Year's resolutions. Travis goes on a rabbit trail about beards and shares about his New Year's goal around better beard grooming and "bearding responsibly" in 2024. Jessie talks about her unique workplace setting. They share tips and paradigm shifting resources they've learned that help us better achieve our goals and resolutions. They discuss rhythms and creating space for new habits to take root...2024-01-2432 minCultivate the OrdinaryA Beautifully Adventurous Life: Full of Wonder and CuriosityIn this episode, Travis and Jess talk about the themes of wonder, curiosity, and creativity. They ask questions like: "Where does our childlike wonder go?" and "How can boredom lead to curiosity?" They also discuss how God can sometimes dramatically show up in our moments of creativity and curiosity and spark something special. You'll also hear about how they met on a bizarre online dating site where Travis posted a picture of himself riding a llama. They also talk about how God led them into the world of foster care and adoption through an unlikely messenger. You'll...2024-01-1734 minCultivate the OrdinaryCultivating the Ordinary in the EverydayIn this episode, Travis and Jessie introduce themselves and talk about the idea that sparked the podcast. They also describe their vision for who this podcast is for and what it means to "cultivate the ordinary" in the everyday.Travis reminisces about the difficult journey of caring for his dad with crippling dementia and how he found inspiration just watching him cling on to the goodness of life. He also shares about the inspiration he receives daily from his brother Jeremy who suffered a devastating brain injury 15 years ago. Jessie shares about the places and people she...2024-01-0918 min