Shows
Complementary62: MacOS Through the AgesAnthony and Katie discuss the elements of previous MacOS versions that stand out most.Inspired by: https://aresluna.org/frame-of-preferenceHosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-07-2052 minComplementary61: Liquid GlassAnthony and Katie chat about Apple's Liquid Glass.Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-07-0647 minComplementary60: Designing Tools to Support Creativity with Matt Beaudouin-LafonAnthony and Katie are joined by HCI PhD candidate Matt Beaudouin-Lafon at UCSD, and discuss how HCI research intersects with industry product design. Links mentioned:Matt's work on Color FieldInk & SwitchTextoshopCreativity Support Tools paper from Ben ShneidermanHosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-06-221h 02Complementary59: Material 3 ExpressiveAnthony and Katie chat about Material 3 Expressive.Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-06-0237 minComplementary58: Thoughts on Config 2025Anthony and Katie chat about Config 2025.Talks mentioned:Writing is designingThe maximalist theory of minimalismHosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-05-1849 minComplementary57: The Gap Between Design and Execution with Alex KrasikovAnthony and Katie are joined by design engineer Alex Krasikov to discuss .. you guessed it, design engineering.Alex Krasikov: https://x.com/alex_krasikauHosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-05-0443 minComplementary56: NavigationAnthony and Katie discuss navigation patterns.Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-04-2051 min
Design DowntimeKatie Langerman Loves Rock ClimbingWe’re reaching new heights, as Katie Langerman joins us to talk about her adventures in indoor rock climbing. She introduces the different types of climbing (bouldering, top rope, and lead climbing), and talks about how climbing has become a way for her to confront her fear of heights. Katie discusses a serious ankle injury she sustained in 2023 while bouldering, and explains how returning to climbing after the injury was challenging yet therapeutic. She explores the problem-solving nature of climbing, and how that helps her achieve a near-meditative state. Katie also shares advice for people afraid of heights (like th...2025-04-1028 minComplementary55: Design is Decision MakingAnthony and Katie define the process of decision making as it relates to design.Anthony's post: https://x.com/hobdaydesign/status/1904449738084094138Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-04-0640 minComplementary54: Design vs. DevelopmentAnthony and Katie discuss some differences and similarities between design and development. Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-03-1645 minComplementary53: Deep Dive on the Conceptual Model Layer with Jamie MillAnthony and Katie are joined by Jamie Mill to discuss his post on the elements of product design. Jamie Mill: https://jamiemill.com/Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-03-021h 04Complementary52: Visual Design Techniques We LoveAnthony and Katie each pick their top 3 most loved design techniques in the spirit of Valentine's Day.Hosts:Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesignKatie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-02-1640 minComplementary51: Thoughts on the book Do Design: Why beauty is the key to everything by Alan MooreAnthony and Katie discuss the book Do Design: Why Beauty is the Key to Everything by Alan Moore.
Do Design: https://thedobook.co/products/do-design-why-beauty-is-key-to-everything?Format=Paperback
Anthony's list of short design books: https://www.anthonyhobday.com/blog/20230101.html
Dan Luu: Willingness to look stupid
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-02-0242 minComplementary50: Starting from Scratch vs. Improving Existing DesignAnthony and Katie discuss what it takes to start designing something from scratch compared to working on an existing product, and the upsides/downsides of both.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-01-1954 minComplementary49: Design Folklore with Guy SegalKatie, Anthony and special guest Guy discuss design folklore: what it is, where it might come from, and how to best use it in your design practices.
Guy Segal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guysegal
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2025-01-0552 minComplementary48: Ghosts of Software Past, Present and FutureAnthony and Katie bring on the holiday vibes by discussing the past, present and future of software design. Bah humbug!
New design systems podcast Katie mentioned: On Theme
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-12-2235 minComplementary47: People We AdmireDesigners and developers that have influenced us.
The folks we mentioned:
Stephanie Eckles
Andy Bell
Brad Frost
Elizabeth Goodspeed
Frank Chimero
David Pye
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-12-0845 minComplementary46: Design for Developers with Nate ButlerWhat does it really mean to design for developers? Should you cater to power users or beginners? Anthony, Katie and Nate discuss this (and more) with lots of spicy takes and speculation.
Nate Butler: https://nate.cv/
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-11-2459 minComplementary45: ConstraintsWhat are the different kinds of constraints and how do they impact design? Anthony and Katie break it down into several types of constraints including: arbitrary, technical, principled, and convenient.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-11-1043 minComplementary44: How to be a more strategic designer with Jared SpoolJared Spool joins Anthony and Katie to discuss what it means to be a strategic designer. We cover what strategy means, different leadership styles, and the difference between outcomes vs outputs.
Find Jared Spool on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmspool/
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-10-2758 minComplementary43: Design for CustomizationWhat's the difference between customization and personalization in interface design? Anthony and Katie discuss this along with the benefits/downsides of designing for customization.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-10-1340 minComplementary42: Performative Good DesignIt's a ranty one folks. What is performative design, and why does it exist?
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-09-2245 minComplementary41: Elegance vs. ExtravaganceAnthony shares a quote to define elegance vs. extravagance as "do a lot with a little vs. a lot with a lot". Katie and Anthony discuss how this relates to interface design and the impact it has on interaction design and product longevity.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-09-0843 minComplementary40: Should Designers Code?How might designers learning how to code impact interface design? Enjoy this extremely reasonable conversation between Katie and Anthony.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-08-2542 minComplementary39: Possible Futures for AI in Interface Design with Maggie AppletonAnthony, Katie and special guest Maggie Appleton speculate about how AI could impact interface design in the future.
The five possible futures we discussed:
AI replaces designers and developers completely
AI produces a rough draft, a designer “tidies it up”
AI builds the interface out of supplied components and a description of how the interface works
AI produces content/components on demand, designers change it to suit, then put the interface together
Designers ask AI focused questions to get inspiration
2024-08-1156 minComplementary38: Visual Design in Design Systems with Jeremy ElderAnthony, Katie and special guest Jeremy Elder chat about the visual design aspect of design systems.
Find Jeremy on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyelder
GitLab's papercuts site: https://papercuts.gitlab.com/
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-07-2856 minComplementary37: Good Interface Design HabitsAnthony and Katie share their top habits for good interface design.
Design inspiration site Anthony mentioned: https://mobbin.com/
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-07-1442 minComplementary36: Interfaces are Affected by What People Care AboutAnthony and Katie chat about the people behind interfaces, and how competing priorities impact the end result of interface design.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-06-1646 minComplementary35: Form Design with Adam SilverAnthony, Katie and special guest Adam Silver discuss all things form design. We try to define form design (for Anthony's sake), and discuss things like toggle switches, good/bad form experiences, and border color contrast.
Find Adam on Twitter: https://twitter.com/adamsilverhq
Adam's book on form design: https://formdesignpatterns.com/
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-06-0256 minComplementary34: How Design Systems Impact Interface Design with Donnie D'AmatoThis week we're joined by Donnie D'Amato to discuss how design systems have impacted interface design.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-05-1952 minComplementary33: How Interfaces Evolve Over TimeAnthony and Katie discuss how interface design evolves over time.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-05-0541 minComplementary32: Thoughts on "Just Enough Design" by Taku SatohAnthony and Katie discuss "Just Enough Design" by Taku Satoh. Spoiler: we like it.
Anthony's recommended short design books: https://www.anthonyhobday.com/blog/20230101.html
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-04-2136 minComplementary31: Interface Personality vs UsabilityAnthony and Katie discuss how to safely add personality to an interface without sacrificing usability.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-04-0738 minComplementary30: How Important is Feedback?Anthony and Katie discuss design feedback: how important it is, bad vs. good feedback, and the difference between harsh and direct feedback.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-03-2435 minComplementary29: Interface Design RolesAnthony and Katie discuss different roles and responsibilities related to interface design, sharing their preferred combinations.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-03-1033 minComplementary28: Design QuotesAnthony and Katie analyze two quotes related to design.
Anthony's quote from Frank Chimero: https://frankchimero.com/blog/2013/what-screens-want/
Katie's quote from PJ Onori: https://pjonori.blog/posts/analysis-of-style/
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-02-2533 minComplementary27: Finish This Sentence: Celebrating One Year of ComplementaryAnthony and Katie celebrate one year of producing this podcast with a game: finish this sentence. Each person prepared sentences for the other to finish, all related to design.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-02-1144 minComplementary26: Things We're Good AtIn contrast with episode 25, Anthony and Katie discuss things they are good at when it comes to interface design.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-01-2842 min
Code with Jason209 - GitHub Primer with Katie Langerman and Cameron DutroOn today's episode, Katie Langerman and Cameron Dutro of GitHub join me for a discussion of design systems, style guides and GitHub's design system Primer, view components, view-related logic, view testing, and how design changes can pass a system test and yet fail a common sense test. Primer.styleCameron Dutro.comComplementary podcastKatie Langerman on GitHubKatie Langerman on Twitter Katie Langerman on LinkedInCameron Dutro on GitHubCameron Dutro on MastodonCameron Dutro on LinkedIn2024-01-1450 minComplementary25: Things We're Not Good AtAnthony and Katie share some things they're not good at when it comes to interface design. There are plenty of benefits to being aware of your own weaknesses, and learning to talk about them openly can help lead you towards improvement and/or acceptance.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2024-01-1438 minComplementary24: Hot TakesKatie reacts to Anthony's "hot takes" to wrap up 2023.2023-12-3141 minComplementary23: Landing Page Style vs Application StyleAnthony and Katie discuss landing page visual style compared to application visual style, crossover between brand and utility, and whether or not a single designer can do both styles.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-12-1741 minComplementary22: What Is Uniquely Human about Design?Anthony and Katie discuss AI and what is uniquely human about design.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-12-0344 minComplementary21: WireframingAnthony and Katie attempt to define wireframing, and discuss why or why not you might want to use them.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-11-1234 minComplementary20: Thoughtful Interface DesignAnthony and Katie discuss what makes interface design "thoughtful", including some specific things to keep in mind as a designer.2023-10-2936 minComplementary19: Interface Design MisconceptionsAnthony and Katie discuss commonly misused terminology, hot takes for the algorithm, and focusing on the approach instead of the reason. 2023-10-1538 minComplementary18: Predicting the Future of Interface DesignAnthony and Katie chat about futuristic interface design and make some *fun* predictions.
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-10-0132 minComplementary17: Where "Novel" Design Comes FromAnthony and Katie discuss what makes design feel "novel" and some strategies to achieve it.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-09-1736 minComplementary16: LayoutAnthony and Katie discuss layout. Take our poll on main content alignment with a sidebar: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign/status/1698041067914801515?s=20
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-09-0452 minComplementary15: Color with Lukas OppermannAnthony, Katie and special guest Lukas Oppermann discuss color. Check out Lukas on Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukasoppermann.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-08-2054 minComplementary14: TypographyAnthony and Katie discuss the various properties that make up typography.
Links mentioned:
https://designregression.com/article/line-length-revisited-following-the-research
https://abookapart.com/products/on-web-typography
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-08-061h 01Complementary13: Looks Pretty vs. Works GoodAnthony and Katie discuss a listener topic around "looks pretty vs. works good".
Books mentioned:
Form Design Patterns, Adam Silver
Designing Interactions, Bill Moggridge
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-07-2443 minComplementary12: Coherent Interface DesignAnthony and Katie discuss the term “coherent” as it relates to interface design (after a bit of banter).
Figma Config talks mentioned:
Ashley Seto: Using color at scale for aesthetics and accessibility
Duolingo: Embracing art to enhance your product
CSS talk: The future of responsive design
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-07-1052 minComplementary11: The Value of Visual Design to your CareerAnthony and Katie discuss why visual design is valuable for your career as a designer.
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-06-2544 minComplementary10: Taking Interaction Design from Good to GreatAnthony and Katie discuss what takes interaction design from good to great.
Things look like they act and act like they look
Useful animation
Physical/spatial consistency
Speed and responsiveness
Fiddle factor
Context awareness
Links:
WWDC talk on fluid interfaces
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman
2023-06-1850 minComplementary09: Pace LayeringAnthony and Katie discuss pace layering, design systems and AI.
Articles mentioned:
Nathan Curtis: Design System UI is More Expensive than a Product Team's UI
Mark Boulton: The Fast and Slow of Design
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman2023-06-0445 minComplementary08: Conveying Good Taste in a Design PortfolioAnthony and Katie discuss design portfolios, case studies, and networking.
Links mentioned:
Original tweet
Button design walkthrough
Anthony's website
Checkbox design
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman
2023-05-1442 minComplementary07: The Three Pillars of Visual Design: Typography, Layout, and ColorAnthony and Katie discuss what makes typography, layout and color the three pillars of visual design.
Links mentioned:
Non Designers Design Book
Grid systems
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman
2023-05-0740 minComplementary06: Design SystemsAnthony and Katie discuss design systems.
Topics covered:
How to define the term “design system”
Design tokens
Naming things and ordinal scales
Breaking out of a design system
Links mentioned:
https://gk3fyi.substack.com/p/the-cost-of-craft
2023-04-0946 minComplementary05: Improving Your Visual Design SkillsIn this episode, Anthony and Katie discuss how to improve your visual design skills.
Topics covered:
Tacit vs. explicit knowledge
Systematic approaches to learning patterns
Caring about design details
How quality in impacts quality out
Visual design inspiration links:
https://www.lapa.ninja/
https://land-book.com/
https://godly.website/
https://saaslandingpage.com/
https://www.siteinspire.com/
https://twitter.com/awesome_saas
https://twitter.com/saasshots
Other links mentioned:
https://open-props.style/
2023-04-0234 min
Complementary04: AccessibilityIn this episode, Anthony and Katie discuss accessibility for interface design.
Heads up that there's a slight audio quality change about halfway through.
Topics covered:
Incorporating accessibility into your design process
Evaluating a design for accessibility issues
How design systems impact the designer’s role in crafting accessible interfaces
Designing with constraints
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman
2023-03-1943 minComplementary03: SkeuomorphismIn this episode, Anthony and Katie discuss skeuomorphism.
Topics covered:
How we define skeuomorphism
The rise and fall of design trends
Applying realism and visual richness to flat design
How design systems might handle embellishments vs. flat design
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman
2023-03-0434 min
Complementary02: BeautyIn this episode, Anthony and Katie discuss beauty.
Topics covered:
Universal beauty
Classical vs. expressive aesthetics
Practical applications of beauty
The societal impact of beautiful interfaces
Relying on classical beauty techniques when expressive design is out of reach
2023-02-1837 min
ComplementaryPilot: TasteIn this pilot episode, Anthony and Katie discuss taste as it relates to visual design.
Topics covered:
Defining taste
Are you born with good taste, and can it be learned?
Why taste is important for designers
References:
Brie Wolfson: Notes on "Taste"
Hosts:
Anthony Hobday, Generalist Product Designer: https://twitter.com/hobdaydesign
Katie Langerman, Systems Designer: https://twitter.com/KatieLangerman
2023-02-1238 min
Ladies that UX in EnglishLadycast 09 - Lara Greenberg - UX Director, Business Lady and Co-Leader at Ladies That UX BostonIn today's episode we’re going to meet Lara Greenberg, she is currently the Director of UX at Notarize (a Series D company in the legal tech space). She built and now manages an incredible team of product designers, UX researchers, and UX engineers. Aside from growing the team and maintaining a thriving design culture, her work (along with others on her team) includes shaping Notarize's first-ever design system and creating an internal accessibility program. Prior to Notarize, she was a design manager at ezCater (an online marketplace in the food tech space and a "unicorn" Series D company), whe...2022-09-2637 min