Shows
The Messy City PodcastThe Past and Future of RetailingOne of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and place-making.Jaime’s book: “Main...2025-07-011h 03
The Messy City PodcastA Symphony of Summer AdviceToday’s episode isn’t exactly Coughlin’s Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg’s Rules, but it is full of some life advice I’d like to share for the dog days of Summer. I’ve long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn’t easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.Key link: Symphony in the Flint Hills2025-06-2442 min
The Messy City PodcastStarting a new Architecture School, Rooted in the ClassicsWhat's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That’s a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it’s also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren’t terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.John Haigh, who’s the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison, Kansas, aims to do something about all this. You likely haven’t heard of...2025-06-1058 min
The Messy City PodcastState-Level Code Reforms for More and Better HousingWhy is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn’t inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That’s a long title and way of saying, she’s someone who does a LOT of research into housin...2025-06-031h 06
The Messy City PodcastBootstrapping Small Scale Affordable HousingTerrell Jolly didn’t start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri’s Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods that the vast...2025-05-2758 min
The Aesthetic City#49 - Kevin Klinkenberg, the Messy City: Fixing Architecture School & Making US Cities WalkableKevin Klinkenberg is an urban designer, planner, and architect from Kansas City with over two decades of experience in creating walkable, human-centered communities. He’s the mind behind The Messy City, a blog and podcast where he explores the complexities of urban development, advocating for adaptability, local initiative, and practical solutions over rigid, top-down planning. He previously served as Executive Director of the Savannah Development and Renewal Authority, where he contributed to a downtown master plan for Savannah, Georgia. A long-time advocate for New Urbanism, and writer of the book ‘Why I Walk’, he has worked across the U.S...2025-05-161h 05
The Messy City PodcastHousing as Economic Development“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building. Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it’s often not how people in the world of economic development think. In particular, for modest-cost cities like Kansas City and much of the Midwest, afford...2025-05-0659 min
The Messy City PodcastWill Your Town Revitalize or Will it Die?Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I’m familiar with. For example, “growth doesn’t always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven’t kept pace with the times.”Jeff Siegler is the man behind the account, and he’s built a nice little...2025-04-2957 min
The Messy City PodcastWhy You Should Make Friends with a BankerMany of us don’t like to think too much about banking and money until we REALLY need to. As an architect, I’m as guilty as anyone as not taking the time to think through the financial side, and to also get easily intimidated by it.But it doesn’t have to be this way, truly. Money is just a tool, like any other tool, and it’s not hard to learn how to use it and to meet people who can help you become successful with money.Landmark National Bank President & CEO Abby Wendel j...2025-04-221h 05
The Messy City PodcastWhen Principles Meet the Real WorldPatrick Tuohey is the Policy Director and co-founder of a think tank called the Better Cities Project. While his own views are politically right of center, the organization is non partisan and aims to give cities advice on the basics of good governance. He’s also an unabashed lover of cities, which is something not common in “Urbanist” circles.We have a wide-ranging discussion, though largely focused on small government, free market principles and how Patrick sees things working or not in cities. We both live in a city that’s widely known for the extensive use of tax i...2025-04-151h 04
The Messy City PodcastAre properties ever really obsolete?Rodney Dangerfield once famously said, “golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate.” We won’t touch cemeteries in this episode, but we do talk about golf courses. Monte Anderson joins me as we discuss different ways of looking at so-called “obsolete” properties. As a teaser: Monte shares with me what I think is one of the most brilliant ideas I’ve heard about how to work with old or declining churches. You must listen to understand it.The whole discussion reminded me of something I wrote about years ago:About fifteen year...2025-04-0859 min
The Messy City PodcastIt Is What It Is - Or NotWe often don’t realize that the “way things are” is just a reflection of some radical change that happened in a previous era. While I’m a firm believer that aspects of human nature haven’t really changed much through the millennia, it is true that we’ve shaped, reshaped, and reshaped our societies over and over again. And the most visible evidence of that change is our cities and towns.Today’s discussion is about looking past the way things are, in many dimensions, and realizing that it is possible to make big changes. In fact, it happe...2025-04-0141 min
The Messy City PodcastBe Great with your PawnsRik Adamski is a man of many hats. But first and foremost, he’s someone that cares deeply about the people side of urban planning. So often, planners, architects and developers get mired in the technical side of building community. And of course, we have to, because there’s a lot that requires our attention.But in this episode, Rik reminds us that planning is really about people, and about helping people make their own place better. The reason we fall in love with a place is more about what the people create themselves, and not what is i...2025-03-261h 04
The Messy City PodcastDo You Live in a Fragile Neighborhood?From the earliest days of my interest in urban planning, I became very interested in the overlap between design and culture. By that I mean, how cities shape human interaction, and how human interaction shapes cities. Why are some places successful when others aren’t, even when they have similar design and planning features? Why do some communities seem so tight and together, when others do not? Is it all just a design problem, as I’ve been taught?In fact, the obvious answer it’s not just a design problem. It’s also about how we relate t...2025-03-1856 min
The Messy City PodcastCreating a (mostly) car-free new town in Costa RicaI had the pleasure of meeting Charles Brewer right when he was starting to get interested in becoming a real estate developer. This was after a very successful short career in the dot-com world, as he was a founder of Mindspring. When he exited, he became interested in New Urbanism, and decided to shift his career toward the building of new, walkable communities.Twenty-plus years later, we get a chance to talk about his journey. And, we get to spend a lot of time discussing Las Catalinas, his remarkable new town on the beach in Costa Rica...2025-03-111h 10
The Messy City PodcastA Conversation with Dhiru ThadaniIt’s truly a rare thing in life to run across people that are uber-talented, thoughtful, and just fantastic human beings. Dhiru Thadani is one of those rare people. An architect, urban designer, author, teacher, and prolific sketch artist, Dhiru has been involved in the New Urbanism movement since the earliest days. He’s written multiple books about the famous new town of Seaside, Florida, and we spend a bit of time rehashing some history on this episode for those that are unaware.One of my most enjoyable lines from this talk, was Dhiru relating that...2025-03-041h 08
The Messy City PodcastDesigning Beauty in Housing, by Being IntentionalThe world of architecture is full of megalomanicas, wanna-be stars, and also a whole lot of good people just grinding out beautiful work outside the spotlight. One thing I enjoy with my little platform is shining a light on some of the people that do that beautiful work, and rarely get national attention.Don Powers, of Union Studio in Providence, Rhode Island, has one of those firms. Union Studio has grown over the years to do a lot of different kinds of work, but what I really wanted to focus on for this interview is their work...2025-02-1856 min
The Messy City PodcastBuilding Culture in OklahomaAustin Tunnell is one of the shining stars of a new generation of designer/builders for creative smaller projects, and he also happens to work in the world of mass masonry construction. In this episode, we talk about his journey from accountant to mason and beyond, with his really cool company called Building Culture.Austin now lives and works in the Oklahoma City area, and he’s aggressively expanding his scope with a new project called The Townsend. Audio doesn’t really do these projects justice. You really need to look these up, and/or see them in p...2025-02-111h 10
The Messy City PodcastExploring Small Scale vs Large Scale DevelopmentIt’s not often you run across people in the development world that have deep knowledge in both the smallest scales of projects and the biggest. The industry, like many, is very bifurcated. People who do small projects tend to keep doing small projects. People who work on really large projects tend to keep doing that for their careers.Joe Perry, who works as his day job as the Vice President of Development for PortKC, has had one solid foot in both worlds for his entire career. We talk about what it’s like to exist in both...2025-01-281h 09
The Messy City PodcastBoomerang to Help Your Hometown“Just do it. Do it as quickly as you can.” That’s the advice of architect Doug Moss, who came to doing small-scale development projects after working for three decades as an architect. Doug left small-town Texas to pursue a career in New York, and boomeranged back several years ago to pursue his dreams as a developer. Now living in Austin, Doug has a healthy side gig doing small projects in Taylor, Texas, where he grew up.Doug and I met during the Small-Scale Developer Forum, which is a group Jim Heid gathers together twice per year. If you...2025-01-2151 min
The Messy City PodcastIs Your Town a Bitterness Factory or a Hope Factory?Allen County, Kansas is not a place most people will be familiar with, but the story is one you’ve probably heard before. Located in southeast Kansas, an hour and a half from the nearest major city, it features much that’s typical of rural America. Iola, the county seat, is a city of 5,300 people. It has a classic town square and lies at the junction of a couple of state highways. The beautiful Flint Hills and its majestic cattle ranches are not far away.But after the community lost its hospital in the early 2000s, the usua...2025-01-071h 07
The Messy City PodcastHow to be a Small Developer that Makes a Big ImpactJesse Russell and Ryan Andrews fit the profile of successful small developers. That is, they had no experience at all before trying it, almost no money, but have a ton of passion and creativity. Jesse and Ryan discuss how they came from the worlds of tv show production and finance to create a small development business in beautiful Bend, Oregon. They now focus primarily on cottage-style housing and unique, communal projects.Beyond their projects, what is incredibly fascinating is their story of creating a locally-based investment fund so they can do more projects and truly work hand-in-hand...2024-12-3156 min
The Messy City PodcastA Conversation with Oklahoma City Mayor David HoltMayor David Holt, far younger than me, has an impressive resume for any big-city Mayor. He’s been elected overwhelmingly twice, and his city is clearly on the rise. If you’re not familiar with what’s going on in Oklahoma, this is a chance at some insight.Moving out of a dark period in the city’s history in the early 1990s, Oklahoma City took it upon itself to pursue a dramatic makeover. Every city is a work in progress, but what’s been accomplished in the thirty years is remarkable. Mayor Holt and I discuss the MAPS p...2024-12-2448 min
The Messy City PodcastCan Design Charrettes Teach Us How to Fix Broken Systems?It’s an intriguing irony that we live in the managerial age, with more managers than ever, and yet so much in our society is so poorly managed. But what can be done? Is it just an inevitable fact of modern life?In this episode, I break down my experience using the design charrette process in planning and architecture. And, I discuss the lessons learned from years of creating these very successful processes. Can this unique approach to problem-solving help us better manage our cities, towns and institutions? How does the charrette process get to such successful so...2024-12-1848 min
The Messy City PodcastThe many virtues of urban courtyard livingIf you’ve traveled much to countries outside of the US, you frequently see a type of building that sits right up on the street, but has a landscaped courtyard space behind it. Instead of the ubiquitous American form of street-front yard-building-back yard, this type of building lacks a front yard in exchange for park-like spaces in the interior. As architects, we call these a variety of names, from courtyard buildings to perimeter blocks and on and on.Alicia Pederson has come to Twitter/X and quickly gained a large following by highlighting the virtues of this ki...2024-12-031h 03
The Messy City PodcastBuilding the Not-Quite Missing MiddleIn the urbanism and planning world, we talk a lot about Missing Middle Housing. Rightfully so, since it’s a critical element that helps a community succeed and provide the total range of housing options. And, it’s historically what we used to build a LOT of, before the advent of zoning and modern development codes.Hal Shapiro of Real Property Group in Overland Park, KS, talks with us about his unique niche and take on working in this field. Hal started on the lending side of the equation, and eventually worked his way into property ownership and...2024-11-2646 min
YeomanKevin Klinkenberg: Subsidiarity, Local Governance, and the Human-Scale – #18Kevin Klinkenberg is an urban designer, architect, planner, and writer. He is the Executive Director of Midtown KC Now, a nonprofit in Kansas City working on effective community development and management in Midtown Kansas City. Kevin is also the host of the Messy City Substack and podcast, where he dissects work on design, development, planning, and placemaking around the country. In this episode, Geoff and Kevin discuss localism, effective municipal governance, New Urbanism, the human-scale, and more.
Show notes on the Yeoman website: https://yeomanpodcast.com/2024/11/27/kevin-klinkenberg-18/2024-11-231h 04
The Messy City PodcastHow to Hack Your LifeStop what you’re doing, and listen to this episode. Trust me, it’s worth it.I came across Joe Jimenez by way of Coach Carson, who has interviewed him twice. Joe lives in Kalispell, Montana, and now owns a business called Switchback Suites. Joe and I discuss his interest in the FIRE movement, (FIRE = Financial Independence, Retire Early) and how he eventually translated that into his own world. A key piece has been using house hacking to get into real estate investing, and to as he says, “play life on easy mode.”I absolutely loved th...2024-11-051h 03
The Messy City PodcastTurning love of your town into a development crusadeBefore this episode, I knew nothing about Mineral Wells, TX. Now, i’m interested to visit. Mineral Wells is a small, historic resort town west of Fort Worth. It’s the sister city of Hot Springs, Arkansas. And our guest’s family has been on the forefront to save it from recent decline.For me, this, what Macy Nix Alexander relates to me is how people who truly love their place can be the change that helps turn its fortunes around. This is a remarkable tale that can be relatable to all manner of places, regardless of their...2024-10-2943 min
The Messy City PodcastGetting to Affordable Infill DevelopmentEric Kronberg, of Kronberg Urbanists + Architects, is a wealth of knowledge for people wanting to truly understand the realities of new construction in cities. First off, it’s Kronberg with a long o, not as I initially pronounced it. Apologies to Eric.Eric and I talk about his work in missing middle housing, working in development in Atlanta, and the opportunities and perils of doing infill new housing. TLDR: it ain’t easy, but there are solutions. A couple of great takeaways I had from this episode are that the most cost effective way to buil...2024-10-221h 04
The Messy City PodcastTravel LessonsSo-called “urbanists” tend to travel to foreign lands and come back with the obvious takeaways: foreign cities good, American cities bad. I get that. I understand the impulse. I’ve done it myself, so who am I to judge? But let’s suppose for a minute we put that impulse on pause, and ask, what can we learn that can be applied quickly and inexpensively to American cities? If we look past the charm of thousand-year old human settlements, are there other lessons worth learning? I explore this, and have some quick thoughts on the IDA conference in Seatt...2024-10-0841 min
The Messy City PodcastHow Does a Small Developer Actually Make Money?Monte Anderson of Neighborhood Evolution and Options Real Estate in Duncanville, Texas joins me to talk about extremely practical matters: making money in real estate. That is, as a small developer, how is it actually done? What are the pros and cons of different approaches, such as buying and holding vs selling?We start this by discussing a YouTube video from The Real Estate God. Yes, that’s the real channel. Titled, “The best way to 3x your money in 2024,” the video is a good jumping off point for how to structure deals in an ideal world. And, i...2024-09-0358 min
The Messy City PodcastCities and Parents: Let's Get Real About What MattersTruth is, I wish we talked a lot more about making cities as kid-friendly as possible. The topic is often overlooked. That’s why it was fascinating to see Derek Thompson’s article, “The Urban Family Exodus Is a Warning For Progressives” get so much traction. He clearly touched a nerve.Today, I give my take in this solo podcast. As a father, as someone that loves cities, and someone that is in fact deeply concerned about the trendlines, I share my observations. This one gets a little personal. Ground I cover includes: 1. How parents really f...2024-08-2747 min
The Messy City PodcastExploring the Mechanics of an Architect’s First Small DevelopmentWe travel to the beautiful Pacific Northwest this week to talk with architect Cary Westerbeck. Cary lives and works in Bothell, Washington, a northern suburb of Seattle. He traces his path from being a bicycle mechanic to architect, developer and even Planning Commission member.One of the really cool things about this episode is hearing Cary take me step by step through his process to build the Fir Street Lofts. This size of project, 3 apartments and one retail space, is the kind of project that should be within reach of many aspiring developers. Cary talks about how...2024-08-201h 06
The Messy City PodcastJim Heid and the Small-Scale Developer ForumAbby Newsham and I have some fun with a joint podcast this week, as we host Jim Heid. Jim runs the Small Scale Developer Forum, and has a new book called “Building Small: A Toolkit for Real Estate Entrepreneurs, Civic Leaders, and Great Communities.” He spent some time in Kansas City while preparing to host his next forum here in October. Registration is open now!Jim is a wealth of great information for emerging developers. A landscape architect by trade, he came to development mid-career. He shares his story about why and how he did this, working as a...2024-08-131h 00
The Messy City PodcastMissouri's Favorite Topic: KC vs St LouisThis week, we take a little different tack and explore a time-worn Missouri rivalry: Kansas City vs St Louis. I invite two born-and-raised St Louisans, Abby Newsham and Jason Carter-Solomon to explore what is working and what is not with these two cities and metros. These two regions dominate this part of the Midwest, but have entirely different cultures and growth trajectories. If you go back far enough to Joel Garreau’s “Nine Nations of North America” you may remember that he labeled Kansas City as the capital of the “Breadbasket” region, and had St Louis as a border c...2024-08-061h 00
The Messy City PodcastCode Reform is not just about ZoningThere’s so many acronyms in this episode, it might make your head spin. We talk about IRC, IBC, IEBC, ADA, FHA and more. John Anderson and I don’t do this to punish you, or make you feel confused. But, it’s critical to understanding the world of how buildings actually get built. John is usually good for at least a couple of one-liners, and this one is my favorite in this episode:Real estate development is a black box full of money and villains.You’ll learn in this episode...2024-07-301h 00
The Messy City PodcastA Conversation with Joe MinicozziThere’s a lot of takeaways from any conversation with Joe Minicozzi, or one of his many public presentations. Here’s mine today: omnipotent forces didn’t create our current systems, whether we are talking about zoning, traffic engineering or tax assessment. Or, in fact, just about anything in life.These were all created by fallible humans. We can, and should, change them. It’s our duty, our responsibility. Your local tax system, and your local zoning code were not handed down to you by Moses from the mountain.Joe Minicozzi of Urban 3 is one of those...2024-07-231h 04
The Messy City PodcastPlanning Takes Center Stage in KalamazooI’m not often left speechless when I’m interviewing guests, but for a few moments here I struggled to digest what Rebekah Kik was telling me about Kalamazoo. If you’re a planner, you must listen to this episode. This is a truly inspirational effort in a city that doesn’t get the limelight. For a city of about 75,000 people in a quiet corner of Michigan, the staff and community have done amazing work.The story is mostly about a planning effort called Imagine Kalamazoo, which sounds like every garden-variety planning effort everywhere. But, the way it came...2024-07-091h 06
The Messy City PodcastParking Parking Parking!We must talk about your parking regulations. In fact, we must mock them. In no other area of life do head spins quicker, and people’s opinions take on truly bizarre forms, than we we talk about parking. I get it, we are a culture obsessed with driving and parking. It’s part of nearly adult’s daily routine. In this episode, Tony Jordan of the Parking Reform Network and I have some fun with it, while also diving into the nitty-gritty of how to make change in your community.As a bonus, Tony describes some o...2024-07-021h 05
The Messy City PodcastTalking Streetcars and Transit with Mr. KC StreetcarIt’s no secret in the world of transit and streetcars that Kansas City has had one of the most successful new streetcar lines in the country. For a two-mile “starter line,” it’s had an outsized impact on our city’s reputation and civic image. Today, I talk with the man behind RideKC Streetcar, Tom Gerend.Tom is a planner by education, but work took him eventually into the world of transportation planning and now, operations. We talk about how a planner ends up in this kind of role, and how he’s managed the start up and opera...2024-06-251h 05
The Messy City Podcast"Coach" Carson connects Financial Independence to Strong TownsAs I said right off the beginning of this interview, I really love it when worlds collide in my own life. It’s one of the more joyful aspects of doing a podcast, and talking with people in real life.Chad “Coach” Carson is someone in the Financial Independence world that I’ve listened to and followed for some time. He’s a very genuine guy, and his particular niche focuses on using small-scale real estate investment to build financial freedom for yourself and your family. Check out his website, YouTube channel and podcast.We ran into e...2024-06-1859 min
The Messy City PodcastFrank Starkey: Architect as New Urbanist DeveloperFrank Starkey and his family are one of those rare breeds of Floridians that actually have deep roots in the Sunshine State. We talk about how they sought to owner their grand-dad’s wishes as they ultimately developed the family cattle ranch in New Port Richey. A big part of their work was the Traditional Neighborhood Development (TND) called Longleaf. And later, the Starkey Ranch project.Here’s a funny real estate video about Longleaf: (funny to me, anyway)If you listen to Frank, you’ll learn how an architect has a whole different perspective on the...2024-06-111h 22
The Messy City PodcastOn Housing with Aaron LubeckAaron Lubeck and I sat down in Cincinnati, during CNU 32, to talk a lot about housing, policy, and how to actually make change. Aaron writes a Substack called On Housing, where he frequently explores these issues. And, he’s one of the founders of Southern Urbanism, which has a terrific array of writers and feature pieces.Some of the posts we discuss:I am Going to Gring Back the Sears HomeWhat’s Next for Jane Jacobs’ Sidewalk Ballet?A Brief Detour to Honor My Old LadyHow North Caroli...2024-06-0453 min
The Messy City PodcastGen X - Step Up or Opt Out?I join my favorite Akron-ite, Jason Segedy, in Akron, to talk about northeast Ohio, Strong Towns, and generational roles. We do this while sitting outside a former major tire factory, in the tire capital of the world. What a cool scene it was. It makes me think I need video for these discussions.Jason and I seem to have a lot in common, and he’s the kind of person I can chat with for hours. As I told him toward the end, I also just really love and admire people who love their town. It’s beco...2024-05-2957 min
City DwellerKevin Klinkenberg: An Urban Planner Living a Car-Lite Life in Kansas CityKevin Klinkenberg has worked as an urban planner since 1993. He blogs about urban planning and design issues and hosts The Messy City Podcast. Kevin is the author of Why I Walk: Taking a Step in the Right Direction, a personal story of the benefits of living in a walkable neighborhood.2024-05-2421 min
The Messy City PodcastKC Crew, May 2024 - Real TalkTwo of last year’s most popular guests return to talk all things KC real estate, and especially urban core development. It’s a challenge right now, and we talk about why, and when things might change.We also hit on some topics that people like to avoid, such as this piece on surging exurban development in our region. Do urbanists understand how little we produce, compared to what’s happening in the burbs?Finally, we discuss the tangled web of drug stores closing in the urban core, and the importance of beauty in the urban...2024-05-211h 45
The Mississippi Valley Traveler PodcastTrouble in River City: Kevin Klinkenberg on Why So Many Communities Are StrugglingSend us a textIf you’re like me, as you’ve driven along the Mississippi River, or even around the country, you’ve noticed communities that aren’t doing too well. Many of these are older urban areas, but I see plenty of small towns struggling, too. What’s going on? Isn’t this just the free market at work? To dig into this issue, I invited my brother, Kevin Klinkenberg, onto the podcast. Kevin is an architect and planner who has spent much of his career working to improve communities. In this episode, we talk about what m...2024-05-151h 07
The Messy City PodcastWhat do ferris wheels and Bono have in common?Every so often, I get into the personal advice game. Perhaps it’s a side effect of being a father, as well as hitting a point in life where you’ve seen and done a lot. I like to share whatever wisdom I’ve learned, in the vain hopes that someone else can benefit from my experience. That’s especially true for younger people who have a passion for cities, for development, and for making beautiful places. Along those lines, in this episode, I discuss my pet peeve with the word “they,” how to think about issues in your comm...2024-05-0931 min
The Messy City PodcastA Conversation with Charles MarohnChuck Marohn, the President and Founder of Strong Towns, joins me to talk about his newest book, “Escaping The Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis.” Along the way, we also discuss the upcoming Strong Towns National Gathering in Cincinnati, a different way cities can think about building and financing new sports facilities, and our different takes on the place-making of Disney World.If you have an interest in attending the National Gathering in May, I highly recommend it. Register at this link, and use this code for Discounts: KEVINK2024For some back...2024-04-301h 03
The Messy City PodcastIs the proposed Royals' stadium a good idea?Butch Rigby is a long-time Kansas City developer, small business promoter, and city booster. We decided to sit down and talk about the looming ballot initiative on April 2, and the pros and cons of the current proposal for moving the Royals to the Crossroads neighborhood. You can listen to more of Butch’s story in this podcast.Another podcast of interest is this discussion with Philip Bess, and our work together to save Fenway Park.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by l...2024-03-2642 min
The Messy City PodcastSeth Zeren Builds the Next Right ThingOf all the parts of this enjoyable conversation with Seth Zeren, now of Providence, RI, the part I liked the most was this quote:The worst fight is with your allies that betray you.The quote, which is mostly about perception, says a lot about people who are frequently in heated agreement with each other, but find themselves disagreeing on something that’s very minor in the big picture. We discuss this as we discuss his post called, “When New Urbanists and YIMBYs fight.”Seth has a great Substack, talking about all the overla...2024-02-271h 07
The Messy City PodcastTwo Urbanists Walk Into a BarEric Brown spends most of his time designing beautiful buildings and doing urban plans for his firm, Brown Design Studio. But, when you get him away from the desk, you find someone with a good sense of history, and an understanding of how to get things done. We partnered up together in Savannah to help create the Savannah Urbanism Series (a guest lecture series), host CNU 26, and create the Savannah 2033 Plan for greater downtown.With all of Eric’s many accomplishments, he’s a good person to talk with when we try to understand the bigger landscape of c...2024-02-061h 05
The Messy City PodcastThe Housing Trap, with Daniel HerrigesDaniel Herriges has been one of my favorite reads on the Strong Towns site for many years. He has thoughtful, in-depth pieces on many subjects, notably housing. Now, he has co-authored a new book with Chuck Marohn called “Escaping the Housing Trap.” We discuss the book, and much more, including my guest appearance in the book.New feature: transcript belowFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you...2024-01-3059 min
The Messy City PodcastSquint, and look 50 years into the FutureDavid Gale was the first significant client that hired my old architecture/planning firm, back in 2001. Dave was already a successful developer of master-planned communities in Lee’s Summit, Missouri, and we worked together for several years to create Kansas City’s first and largest Traditional Neighborhood Development called New Longview. Cutting out the jargon, that means the first new, walkable community planned along the lines of older communities.Gale Communities has worked for years on the Winterset developments in Lee’s Summit, and Dave has brought his passion and vision to suburban development. My experience is, he’s a...2024-01-2356 min
The Messy City PodcastA second tour through Pre-Approved BuildingsConversations about zoning and building can get really wonky really quickly. That’s why it’s important to remember the goal: how do we create more of the kind of intimate, find-grained communities that humans obviously love? Can we actually do this all through development regulations? History hasn’t been kind to that notion over the last hundred years. New urbanists designers innovated form-based codes as a counterpoint to segregated-use zoning. Some of those have worked, and some haven’t. We discuss the pros and cons of those codes in this episode, and what appears to be the late...2024-01-1659 min
The Messy City PodcastA half-dozen priorities for my communityEach year, I like to set aside some time and figure out priorities for the year ahead. This time, I took a step back and asked, “What do I think the priorities should be for my community? For my little corner of the world, what would help us thrive?”Some of these may surprise you, and some may not. But it’s my best attempt to work this all out for myself. I’m not perfect; none of us are. I have my own blind spots and preferences. But coming from the vantage point of an urban planner...2024-01-0939 min
The Messy City PodcastA KC Christmas Special: Baseball, Parking & Infill DevelopmentMerry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! For this final episode of 2023, we convene some of my KC brain trust to discuss a few perennial hot topics. We have a lengthy discussion on district parking and parking management in a car-dominated metro region, we discuss the possible future location of the Kansas City Royals, and talk some about current projects and lessons learned in small-scale infill development.When it comes to baseball, there’s tons of great websites out there on stadiums, but I think this one on historic stadiums that are now gone is a good on...2023-12-261h 26
The Messy City PodcastDo we know what "urbanism" even means?Abby Newsham hosts the excellent podcast “Upzoned” on the Strong Towns network. I always recommend it to people, since it’s a great way to keep on top of current issues in the field, and you’ll get plenty of contrarian takes. Sometimes, the contrarian is me, but often it’s Strong Towns President Chuck Marohn. Abby has had a recent hiatus from hosting podcasts (but set to return in 2024), and so we do a little reverse Upzoned this time where I get to interview her. We discuss this piece called “Have you Ever Seen a City?” by Addison del...2023-12-1956 min
The Messy City PodcastUrbanists: Our Blind Spots Limit the Success of our CitiesThose of us who willingly embrace a label such as “urbanists” or “new urbanists” would do well to recognize we are a tiny minority of the population. If we want our tiny minority to grow, and our cities to succeed, we need to better appreciate what appeals to everyone else. Let’s learn to recognize those traits, and then make our cities better. When we forgive failure or incompetence, we do no one any favors - including the places we love.Happy Thanksgiving, and Happy Holidays to all.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s...2023-12-0530 min
The Messy City Podcast12 Reasons to Love the American Grid, and Doug AllenPaul Knight, a planner with the design firm Historical Concepts, can give you a dozen reasons for just about anything. More importantly, he can give you reasons for brushing up on the lectures of former Georgia Tech professor Douglas Allen. Allen was a giant in the field of urban planning, and fortunately some of his former students and colleagues have carried on his work following his passing. Paul is one of them, helping form the Douglas Allen Institute.This may all sound very academic, and I know I often take shots at academia. But, when it works...2023-11-211h 03
The Messy City PodcastWhat do Fenway Park, Notre Dame, and barking dogs have in common?Philip Bess joins me this week in a wide-ranging conversation about architecture, academia, and baseball. It’s not the first time we’ve shared such a bizarre collection of topics. We didn’t even get into localism, subsidiarity, and Georgism. We’ll save that for next time, I suppose.Mr. Bess is retiring from a career in academia, at Andrews University and Notre Dame University. I also had one of my very first design charrette experiences with Phil, back in 1999 in Ada, Michigan. We talk about his experience in academia as someone with a fondness for traditional architec...2023-11-141h 02
The Messy City PodcastReforming our culture of building, one brick at a timeSomehow it’s fitting that his name is Clay. Yet, he’s more than just a brick mason. Clay Chapman is part artist, part philosopher, and part builder. His new buildings have captured the attention and imaginations of everyone who’s seen them. I joke with him that at every conference session I’ve seen, he’s the most popular presenter. But it’s no joke; people are enthralled by his newly constructed homes.Clay talks about how he became the country’s most famous bricklayer (ok, that’s my moniker for him), and the ins and outs of building...2023-10-311h 02
The Messy City PodcastAre we drifting back towards 1910?Today, I discuss three chapters of issues that are tied together by the place-making triumvirate of design, policy and management. First, I revisit the International Downtown Association (IDA) annual conference, and the importance of place management organizations. Very quietly, these types of groups are stepping up to better manage public space in neighborhoods all over the country. It’s a great thing. Second, I dig deeper into the issues facing many schools and getting kids to schools on buses. I ask, is this yet another example of how we seem to be drifting fitfully back toward 1910? What do...2023-10-2449 min
The Messy City PodcastDiane Botwin: TransmogrifierI’ve long said it’s incredibly unfortunate we have such negative caricatures of real estate developers. Perhaps this is a sad legacy of the movie “Caddyshack.” Or, perhaps it’s the relentless wave of cherry-picked stories that dominate our media narratives.All the while, we have people like Diane Botwin, who just go about their lives and days creating wonderful projects, partnerships and good deeds for human beings. Why isn’t she our picture of a developer? In this episode, we trace Diane’s path from musician to attorney to developer. You may even notice she’s managing a con...2023-10-101h 05
The Messy City PodcastGoing Deeper on Pre-Approved PlansIn the very small world of people working on the concept of pre-approved building plans for infill development, Jennifer Griffin and Jennifer Settle have been pioneers. “The Jennifers,” as a few of us jokingly call them (I’ll have a future episode with “The Matts”) meet with me to discuss their work in South Bend, and their own journeys as entrepreneurs in the world of urban design and architecture.Jen Griffin runs her own firm in Tulsa, OK called J Griffin Design.Jen Settle now works with Opticos Design, in their Chicago office.They both...2023-10-0357 min
The Messy City PodcastCity Comforts, RevisitedPlease take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.David Sucher’s 1995 classic, City Comforts is a book I have long recommended to anyone with an interest in cities, design and planning. In a way, the book really hit the cultural mark in that era. It was set in Seattle, which was the locus for 1990s culture, especially musical culture. You could almost pair up the book with the 1990s movie, “Singles,” for a sense of what was happening broadly with the American zeitgeist, and perhaps Douglas Coupland’s novel Microserfs. Dav...2023-09-261h 11
The Messy City PodcastThree Priorities for Place ManagementWhat exactly do “place management” organizations do, and where can they be most effective? I share my thoughts after leading Midtown KC Now for almost four years, and I see our role. Here’s a tease: I think the role of these sorts of organizations is incredibly important for the success of communities, and I fully expect this role to grow in the future. This is the kind of locally-based, micro-scale work that truly makes a difference.In the intro, I also reference former Charleston, SC Mayor Joe Riley. There’s many clips you can find of Riley on...2023-09-1950 min
The Messy City PodcastLive, from Akron, OhioJason Segedy has served in public service in Akron, Ohio for over 25 years. He’s been a leader at an MPO, and also the Planning Director in the city where he was born and raised. It’s safe to say that Jason has a lot of love for his hometown of Akron, Ohio.I began following Jason on social media, mostly Twitter, several years ago. I found him instantly to be one of the most thoughtful, provocative and insightful people on that forum. He’s a big thinker, but also eminently practical and funny. He cares deeply about...2023-09-121h 14
The Messy City PodcastWriting the Story for Your City or TownSteve Garrett has a delightful podcast called Within the Realm, where he tells short stories of people and places in the world he knows best. He’s also a former City Manager, and a recent devotee to the world of Strong Towns. He joins me to talk about how people like himself and others that aren’t so versed in the world of city-making can find ways to improve their own little corner of the world. We hit on big and small change, successes and failures and the different roles we can all play.Find more content on T...2023-09-051h 16
The Messy City PodcastWhat is your second career?Mike Keen info Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe2023-08-291h 05
The Messy City PodcastRebuilding South BendAbout a month ago, Strong Towns released this fantastic video on South Bend, Indiana that’s gone a bit viral within the planning and development world. I personally wish it would go viral to an enormous audience. It’s a remarkable story, and they called it, “Can American Cities Save Themselves? This One Thinks So.”One of the protagonists in this story is Mike Keen, a retired professor who lives in South Bend. Mike joins me in this episode to dive deeper into how this all came together, and how he went from someone knowing nothing about business...2023-08-291h 05
The Messy City PodcastCreating a Wonderful LifeDuring the course of this interview, I jokingly called Butch Rigby the George Bailey of Kansas City. But the more I reflect on this, the more true it rings. Butch talks about how he started with nothing, got his hands dirty for years, and slowly but doggedly created a successful development business. And, how he did it almost exclusively by working with small, local businesses. There’s so much to learn here, and if I had the power, I’d have every 20-something that’s looking for something meaningful to do in life to listen to this episode. I wish I...2023-08-221h 03
The Messy City PodcastLoving the Great River, and its Towns“People travel thousands of miles to go on outdoor adventures, but you can do all that right here on the Mississippi.”The great river through the middle of the country is so many things to so many people. It’s a transportation lifeline, a natural wonder, a deep connection to the human spirit, and the birthplace of countless cities and towns.Dean Klinkenberg, who happens to be my older brother, has spent all his adult life living along the river, studying it, exploring it, and thinking about how to make it more accessible and healthier for al...2023-08-081h 12
The Messy City PodcastThe Next UrbanismHoward Blackson is the Howard Roark to my Peter Keating. He’s the oil to my water. Well, alright, maybe not so much. But we have sparred from time to time over American city grids, and urban design issues that all of about 100 people get really into. Beyond that, he’s a passionate San Diegan, and a very accomplished planner and designer.We finally had a chance to do a podcast together, and soldiered through some rough tech issues. Forgive any bumps.Yes, we talk some about grids, about the US West and the Laws of t...2023-08-011h 05
The Messy City PodcastMarina Khoury Does it AllMarina Khoury is easily one of the most accomplished people in the world of urban design and planning that you probably don’t know. From Lebanon to Paris to Wisconsin and ultimately to work at DPZ CoDesign, Marina’s career has spanned a remarkable amount of work and experiences. The Miami21 zoning code alone is a heroic effort, worthy of great study for large cities nationwide. We trace Marina’s wide array of work in architecture, urban design and writing codes.Key links:Marina’s LinkedIn profileDPZ WebsiteThe Kentlands Citizens...2023-07-181h 12
The Messy City PodcastFor the Humans: Talking about joy, cities and mental healthNot to be redundant, but Arti Harchekar is a joy to talk with. The author of the unique and fascinating blog, Joyful Urbanist, Arti has moved from planning to design to now the tech world, but always explores her interest in cities, towns and how places make us feel. I knew early on that Arti would do really great things, and it wouldn’t surprise me if one day much more of the world knows her and enjoys her writing.In her writing, Arti likes to talk about our emotional connections to place. She likes to talk ab...2023-07-111h 09
The Messy City PodcastPlanners: Learn to Love AmericaAt the CNU31 and Strong Towns National Gathering confabs this year, I heard a lot of language that would put planners and designers in a very small minority outside the walls of the conference center. I get it - it’s a niche audience. It exists to critique American cities and towns, and make them better. A fair amount of what happens is venting. But an awful lot of what I increasingly hear simply condescends towards what normal Americans value and choose in large numbers. We can do better by our cities and towns, without wishing for a...2023-07-041h 03
The Messy City PodcastHard Lessons are Good Lessons to LearnJohn Anderson was one of the first people I got to know when I was a young pup architect trying to get involved with New Urbanism. I did my first design charrette with John and others in 1999, in Truckee, CA. We subsequently worked together many times over the years, in both planning and architecture work. I’ve seen John rise to being a minor celebrity in this world, and see him inspire countless others to try your hand in this strange professional (if you can call it that) endeavor.We’ve agreed, disagreed and debated a lot over...2023-06-271h 07
The Messy City PodcastAli Quinlan will leave you with no excusesAli Quinlan is easily one of the most impressive people I’ve ever talked with, and makes me feel like I’m not doing nearly enough with my time. She’ll almost certainly have the same impact on you.In this second discussion at CNU31, Ali talks about her path becoming an architect, landscape architect, business owner, and developer. And she talks about how to balance it all while being a single Mom of small children. Ali has some incredible insights into managing her priorities and time, as well as the business side of being in the design...2023-06-201h 01
The Messy City PodcastAsk yourself, "Why am I Doing This?"This is the first of three conversations I recorded at CNU31 in Charlotte in late May/early June. I’ll roll the rest out in coming weeks - each was VERY different, but thoroughly enjoyable. Here’s a tease: I had my first guest cry on-air.Andy Boneau is just a really fun and interesting person to talk with. Part engineer, part planner, part marketing and messaging expert, and now a documentary filmmaker - Andy writes the can’t-miss Substack Urbanism Speakeasy. Andy is funny, self-deprecating, but also profound. If you are someone that thinks at all about...2023-06-131h 03
The Messy City PodcastBringing Some Tough Love to Rookie DevelopersAaron Lubeck doesn’t just have opinions, he’s willing to share them. Honestly. He’s also a guy with a very unusual career path for urban design and planning coaching. Part developer, part historic preservationist, part designer, and now part journalist, Aaron and I cover a lot of ground. How do we find and create more small developers in our community, and actually help them succeed? How can we especially recruit younger people, women and minorities into the field?Aaron has been involved with Incremental Development Alliance from nearly. the beginning, doing trainings and helping recruit. He’s a...2023-06-061h 04
The Messy City PodcastHow does big change happen?Kevin’s editorial note: I’ve had some questions about making transcripts of these available, for those who’d prefer to read instead of listen to the podcasts. I’m looking into it, especially what AI tools might help. Just know I have exceptionally limited time, and there’s no way I’m going to spend an additional hour or two each week refining a transcript. At this point in my life, it’s just not possible. At any rate, the audio is much more interesting anyway - please give it a listen. If you’re new to podcasts, giv...2023-05-3047 min
The Messy City PodcastSo you want to be a City Planner?Being a Director of City Planning is glamorous, right? Isn’t that what Seinfeld taught us?Rob Richardson has been a Planning Director in both Kansas City, Kansas (the Unified Government of Wyandotte County) and Raymore, Missouri. He’s also worked as a planner in Independence, Missouri. We discuss the reality of the job in those communities, and the challenges of working in places that aren’t wealthy.While in KCK, Rob advanced numerous efforts including design guidelines for development of narrow lots (of which there are thousands in the older part of the city), a Trad...2023-05-231h 05
The Messy City PodcastFollow your... anger? Nathan Norris talks about moving from law and the military to New UrbanismNathan Norris and I have been involved in New Urbanism and the Congress for the New Urbanism for more than 25 years. And yet, our backgrounds and path to it couldn’t be more different. Nathan came a military and a legal background, while I came from an architecture and design background. In fact, most New Urbanists were originally like me, and people like Nathan were the outliers.Nathan talks about how he followed his passions, sort of. Basically, things that angered him, led him to future work. Don’t get the wrong idea - Nathan is not an a...2023-05-1657 min
The Messy City PodcastBringing the Strong Towns Message to TexasIt’s a tale of two Kevins, as we discuss cultivating local prosperity and the Strong Towns message with Kevin Shepherd of Verdunity. Kevin is an engineer by background, and started his own planning and engineering firm just over a decade ago in the Dallas area. He left the corporate world to follow his calling to help cities and towns make more fiscally-productive decisions with land use and infrastructure. He talks with us about why he made that leap, how it’s going working in cities and towns in Texas (and elsewhere), and how others can follow in his foot...2023-05-091h 07
The Messy City PodcastPolicy Wonk to Infill DeveloperIn just a few short years, Andrew Ganahl has already made a notable impact in the urban development world in Kansas City. He’s developed three new projects in the urban core, is working on more, and he’s shown how persistence and a positive attitude can get a whole lot done in short order. But, he’s not only not from Kansas City, he’s also only recently become a developer. The Stanford and Harvard-educated public policy wonk (I hope he doesn’t mind me calling him that), only came to the development world in his thirties. We explore th...2023-05-021h 08
The Messy City PodcastTo car-free or not to car-free?The notorious and excellent blogger, Mr. Money Mustache, wrote a worlds-colliding piece a couple weeks ago called “Less Cars, More Money: My Visit to the City of the Future.” MMM writes at length about culdesac Tempe, which we discussed on a previous podcast with Dan Parolek of Opticos Design.MMM is the GOAT in many respects for the Financial Independence movement. If you’ve touched that world at all, you’ve probably heard of him, read his posts, or seen him in movies or clips. Funny thing is, he’s also very interested in urban planning a...2023-04-2559 min
The Messy City PodcastBeing the Change in Your CommunityHow do you find an outlet for your passion for your place, especially when you don’t feel you have the money necessary to get started? Is it possible to still see yourself as a developer?Jason, Shomari and I have a LOT to discuss in this episode. In my longest interview to-date, we talk about a wide range of topics from getting started in development, to being the change in your own community, and what all is going on in Kansas City and the Vine District in particular. Jason and Shomari are two go-getters in KC, wh...2023-04-181h 47
The Messy City PodcastBernice Radle & Monte Anderson: Getting Started in Small-Scale DevelopmentSometimes, you run across people that get you very inspired and fired up for action. They make you want to run through a wall to get started NOW. This episode features two such people. I challenge you not to be energized and excited to do something good for your own community.Bernice Radle is the CEO and Founder of Buffalove Development. She started the company in 2012, and focuses exclusively on the west side of Buffalo.Monte Anderson founded Options Real Estate in 1991 in south Dallas, Texas. He’s one of the founders of the Incremental De...2023-04-111h 00
The Messy City PodcastDan Parolek: Finding the Missing MiddleDan Parolek co-founded Opticos Design with his wife Karen about 25 years ago. Since then, Opticos has become a national leader in the field of urban planning and design. Dan has authored two seminal books, Form-Based Codes: A Guide for Planners, Urban Designers, Municipalities and Developers and Missing Middle Housing: Thinking Big and Building Small to Respond to Today’s Housing Crisis. Dan is a true thought leader in the field, and a great friend of the podcast. Dan and I first got to know each other and work together on a charrette in Truckee, CA in 1999, and we’ve had...2023-04-041h 05
The Messy City PodcastAn Ode to Paul HarveyFor those of us who are a certain age, we remember Paul Harvey’s unique voice entertaining and enlightening us on the radio. His regular shows told us “The Rest of the Story.” For me, that was usually in the car, on long family road trips, trips to school, or trips across southern Minnesota to go to Rochester for the SE Minnesota Youth Orchestra every week (SEMYO, for those in the know). I cherish those moments now. It’s too long ago to remember exactly how I felt at the time - maybe I even made fun of it all. But...2023-03-281h 03
The Messy City PodcastTim Busse: A New Town, 20 Years OldNew Town St. Charles is one of the most ambitious developments in the history of not only St. Louis, but also the New Urbanism movement. New Town was conceived, planned and built by Whitaker Builders. Tim Busse is the long-time Town Architect for Whitaker Builders and the town.In this episode we explore lessons learned from trying to create a walkable place from scratch, and doing so within the world of a large production home builder. We talk about challenges the project had to navigate with the Great Recession, and also the differences between this effort and...2023-03-201h 04
The Messy City PodcastJohnny Sanphillippo: Are you granola or shotgun?Are you a pessimist or an optimist in regards to America’s built landscape, and its future? How can we all find a way to navigate changes that are coming?Johnny Sanphillippo writes the Granola Shotgun blog, where he frequently challenges narratives about cities, suburbs, and what individuals can do. If you’re a lover of walkable places, is it possible to turn the battleship of the last 70+ years and get more of them built? Or, will circumstances change of their own accord, whether we like it or not? What can an individual do in the late year...2023-03-1356 min
UpzonedThe 15 Minute City - A Good Life or an Infringement on Freedoms?The 15 Minute City: a term to describe mixed use neighborhoods, has become a political concept where critics believe the idea could result in an infringement on personal freedoms.
On this Upzoned podcast, host Abby Kinney and special guest Kevin Klinkenberg, talk about this contentious topic of the 15 Minute City and answer the question: Are the concerns people have (about 15 minute cities) warranted, or is this something that we should all be rolling our eyes at and moving on from?
ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES
“The 15 Minute City - Where Urban Planning Meets Conspiracy Theories,” by Chr...2023-03-0826 min
The Messy City PodcastMaking Incremental Change in Kansas CityIncremental change in cities, the kind that used to be by-right, has become progressively more difficult since the creation of zoning and the reforms of the 20th century. How do people who value messy cities and incremental change begin to make change in this environment? How is the context for cities in the middle of the country unique?Dennis Strait and Abby Kinney join the podcast to discuss their work with incremental change, small-scale development and facilitating civic conversations in Kansas City and elsewhere.Dennis an Abby work in the Planning Studio for multistudio. He...2023-03-061h 03
The Messy City PodcastTalking The Original Green and More with Steve MouzonSteve Mouzon, www.mouzon.com, is one of the long-time architects and designers from the New Urbanism movement. Steve has written multiple books, including the series of “A Living Tradition” books, and “The Original Green.”We cover what Steve is currently working on in terms of his writing and publication ventures.We also take a dive into The Original Green - what is it, what led Steve to it, and the implications for architecture and cities and towns.Finally, we spend some time talking about our shared interest in New Media, and how (and why...2023-02-271h 09
The Messy City PodcastWhat is a Messy City?What is a Messy City? Who is Kevin Klinkenberg?In this episode, I’ll introduce myself to those of you who don’t know me, and set the table for what this podcast will cover. I’ll also review and read through a blog post from 2018 called, “What is a Messy City.” Feedback is always appreciated.If you have a moment, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with a friend, and leave a review. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe2023-02-2720 min