Shows
The Investor With Joel PalathinkalOlaf Sakkers: RedBlue CapitalJoel Palathinkal talks to Olaf Sakkers about the future of electric vehicles and transportation. Olaf shares insights on mobility startups, especially in South Africa's tech scene, and discusses challenges for Japanese carmakers. They explore strategies for evaluating startups, due diligence, and networking for fund managers. The episode highlights relationship-building with Limited Partners (LPs), co-investment strategies, and creative LP engagement. It wraps up with thoughts on trust, communication, and enjoying work, with a mention of NVIDIA's founder.
(0:00) Introduction to the podcast, guest Olaf Saker, and electric vehicle trends
(1:42) Olaf Saker's background and the future of transportation
(5:08) Investing in mobility startups and...2025-05-1854 min
Building Better with Brandon Bartneck#197 - Olaf Sakkers | RedBlue Capital – Why our Transportation System is Broken and How to Disrupt ItOlaf Sakkers joins to discuss the purpose of mobility and transportation, the challenges of the current system, and the potential for a more efficient trip economy.
Takeaways
The purpose of transportation is to connect cities and enable economic growth.
The current transportation system in the US is underperforming and has negative externalities, such as high rates of car accidents and wasted time in traffic.
The trip economy, characterized by shared mobility services, offers more efficient and convenient transportation options.
Efforts to improve the transportation system should focus on removing parking minimums, incentivizing better choices, and transitioning...2024-03-0353 min
Climate MoneyClimate Money Ep. 3: The narrative miss on $200B in climate losses + deep dive on Tesla’s Hertz problem with mobility expert Olaf SakkersWelcome to the Episode 3 of the Climate Money Podcast. Follow the climate headlines — and the climate money — with me, Susan Su.
In this episode, we look at:
$200B in climate losses and the climate narrative problem. New data out from global reinsurer Munich RE shows that 2023 was the biggest year on record for climate-related losses. So why are we still talking about the “weather?”
Tesla’s Hertz problem, Ford’s Lightning layoffs, and why China is exporting millions of combustion vehicles even as it becomes the biggest market in the world for EVs...2024-01-2325 min
Fast ForwardThe Big Mobility Trends to Watch with Seleta Reynolds & Olaf Sakkers2024 looks to be a decisive year for many maturing trends in mobility, from electrification to autonomy to digitized fares; it can be hard, however, to tell the hype from hard facts. To help decipher, John Rossant, CEO at CoMotion, is joined by Seleta Reynolds, Head of Innovation at LA Metro, and Olaf Sakkers, mobility thinker and partner at RedBlue capital, for a discussion on everything the coming year in mobility has to offer.2024-01-221h 00
Newsletter AudiocastSeason 2 Ep 1: Nora Eckert on the UAW StrikeIn the first episode of our second season of RedBlue Conversations, co-host Prescott Watson speaks with Nora Eckert to discuss the UAW strike and ongoing labor negotiations of September & October 2023. Nora is a reporter with the Wall Street Journal focused on the major American carmakers and is part of the Journal’s leading automotive team.Nora has spent much of the last two months embedded in the negotiations, and we are lucky to have her as a conversation partner. We discuss:* What’s behind UAW’s aggressive opening to this negotiation? Demands for a 40% wage increa...2023-10-3133 minNewsletter AudiocastSeason 2 Ep 1: Nora Eckert on the UAW StrikeIn the first episode of our second season of RedBlue Conversations, co-host Prescott Watson speaks with Nora Eckert to discuss the UAW strike and ongoing labor negotiations of September & October 2023. Nora is a reporter with the Wall Street Journal focused on the major American carmakers and is part of the Journal’s leading automotive team.Nora has spent much of the last two months embedded in the negotiations, and we are lucky to have her as a conversation partner. We discuss:* What’s behind UAW’s aggressive opening to this negotiation? Demands for a 40% wage increa...2023-10-3133 min
Newsletter AudiocastExpert 04: Horace DediuIn this episode we speak with Horace Dediu, the co-founder of Micromobility Industries and one of the earliest and most influential voices in the world of micromobility. A longtime Apple analyst, his insights into the adoption curve of products like the iPhone informed how he began to look at consumer interest in e-bikes and, later, e-scooters. Looking at the state of micromobility today we touch on flash points, like the near-collapse of one-time leaders like Bird and Lime. “What went wrong,” quickly morphs into “what is still likely to go right,” and Horace takes a generally positive long-term view of the r...2022-10-061h 06Newsletter AudiocastExpert 04: Horace DediuIn this episode we speak with Horace Dediu, the co-founder of Micromobility Industries and one of the earliest and most influential voices in the world of micromobility. A longtime Apple analyst, his insights into the adoption curve of products like the iPhone informed how he began to look at consumer interest in e-bikes and, later, e-scooters. Looking at the state of micromobility today we touch on flash points, like the near-collapse of one-time leaders like Bird and Lime. “What went wrong,” quickly morphs into “what is still likely to go right,” and Horace takes a generally positive long-term view of the r...2022-10-061h 06
Ride AI150: Money for micromobility - the latest VC panel from MM America.This week we release a talk from our recent Micromobility America conference that we hosted in the Bay Area in mid September - this was one of the most popular panels of the event - the ‘Raising Money in Micromobility for Software VC’ panel that was run by our conference cohost, Julia Thayne Demourdant and featured a slew of the top mobility investors and incubators in the space. We loved this panel, because it covered all manner of topics, from funding to government regulation to total addressable market to more.
We’re going to be releasing a few of...2022-10-0343 minRide AI150: Money for micromobility - the latest VC panel from MM America.This week we release a talk from our recent Micromobility America conference that we hosted in the Bay Area in mid September - this was one of the most popular panels of the event - the ‘Raising Money in Micromobility for Software VC’ panel that was run by our conference cohost, Julia Thayne Demourdant and featured a slew of the top mobility investors and incubators in the space. We loved this panel, because it covered all manner of topics, from funding to government regulation to total addressable market to more.
We’re going to be releasing a few of...2022-10-0343 min
Newsletter AudiocastAudiocast 06: can EVs scale(?!), battery sponges & urban trendsDuring episode 6 of the Audiocast series we cover:🚧 What if EVs can’t scale?🧽 Battery sponges & 💧 Lens of scarcity🏘️ Urban trendsVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-09-1323 minNewsletter AudiocastAudiocast 06: can EVs scale(?!), battery sponges & urban trendsDuring episode 6 of the Audiocast series we cover:🚧 What if EVs can’t scale?🧽 Battery sponges & 💧 Lens of scarcity🏘️ Urban trendsVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-09-1323 min
Newsletter AudiocastExpert 03: Lior SteinbergThis episode we speak with Lior Steinberg, an urban planner and co-founder of Humankind, an urban planning firm based in Rotterdam. Lior and his team work with local governments on refactoring urban space through projects like dedicated micromobility lanes and increased green space - all through the lens of making cities more “people-centric.” In our discussion he describes his process for measuring the impact infrastructure changes makes in daily life, centered around projects he’s contributed to in Rotterdam. He also gives us a sneak preview of his upcoming children’s book “The Car That Wanted To Be A Bike.”...2022-09-1339 minNewsletter AudiocastExpert 03: Lior SteinbergThis episode we speak with Lior Steinberg, an urban planner and co-founder of Humankind, an urban planning firm based in Rotterdam. Lior and his team work with local governments on refactoring urban space through projects like dedicated micromobility lanes and increased green space - all through the lens of making cities more “people-centric.” In our discussion he describes his process for measuring the impact infrastructure changes makes in daily life, centered around projects he’s contributed to in Rotterdam. He also gives us a sneak preview of his upcoming children’s book “The Car That Wanted To Be A Bike.”...2022-09-1339 min
Ride: The Urban Mobility PodcastEpisode 28: Going carbon-free is no free lunchGUESTS: Lukas Neckermann, David Woessner, Olaf SakkersABOUT THIS EPISODEFor a consumer, the best price is no price at all. After all, free is the magic number.But we all know that nothing in life is ever really free. Free is always factored into the cost somewhere along the line. But promoting something as free hides that cost, and leads to a complacency that comes with consequences.Free parking encourages us to use our cars. And free delivery prevents us thinking twice about buying something, especially if free...2022-08-3137 min
Newsletter AudiocastExpert 02: Brad TempletonIn our second episode of the Expert series, RedBlue speaks with Brad Templeton, Chairman Emeritus of the EFF, the leading foundation protecting liberties and privacy in cyberspace. Brad was the founder and software architect of ClariNet Communications Corp., the world's first ever ".com" company. In the nineties, Brad became fascinated by self-driving cars, and went on to write a series of industry-leading essays, publish a robo-car blog, and consults for Google's AV team.We get asked all the time a set of questions about autonomous vehicles: When will they be here? Will people still drive when we...2022-08-221h 06Newsletter AudiocastExpert 02: Brad TempletonIn our second episode of the Expert series, RedBlue speaks with Brad Templeton, Chairman Emeritus of the EFF, the leading foundation protecting liberties and privacy in cyberspace. Brad was the founder and software architect of ClariNet Communications Corp., the world's first ever ".com" company. In the nineties, Brad became fascinated by self-driving cars, and went on to write a series of industry-leading essays, publish a robo-car blog, and consults for Google's AV team.We get asked all the time a set of questions about autonomous vehicles: When will they be here? Will people still drive when we...2022-08-221h 06
Newsletter AudiocastExpert 01: Alain BertaudIn our inaugural episode of the Expert series, RedBlue speaks with Alain Bertaud, Senior Fellow at New York University's Marron Institute of Urban Management. He is the author of a book about markets and the practice of urban planning titled “Order Without Design: How Markets Shape Cities” published by MIT Press in December 2018. Bertaud previously held the position of principal urban planner at the World Bank. After retiring from the Bank in 1999, he worked as an independent consultant. Prior to joining the World Bank he worked as a resident urban planner in a number of cities around the world: Bangkok...2022-07-2232 minNewsletter AudiocastExpert 01: Alain BertaudIn our inaugural episode of the Expert series, RedBlue speaks with Alain Bertaud, Senior Fellow at New York University's Marron Institute of Urban Management. He is the author of a book about markets and the practice of urban planning titled “Order Without Design: How Markets Shape Cities” published by MIT Press in December 2018. Bertaud previously held the position of principal urban planner at the World Bank. After retiring from the Bank in 1999, he worked as an independent consultant. Prior to joining the World Bank he worked as a resident urban planner in a number of cities around the world: Bangkok...2022-07-2232 min
Newsletter AudiocastAudiocast 05: AV weirdness, private transit startups & European micromobilityDuring episode 5 of the Audiocast series we cover:🤖 We’re in the weird phase in AV deployments🔮 The future of private transit startups🚲 Micromobility vs cars in Europe (and beyond)Visit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2221 minNewsletter AudiocastAudiocast 05: AV weirdness, private transit startups & European micromobilityDuring episode 5 of the Audiocast series we cover:🤖 We’re in the weird phase in AV deployments🔮 The future of private transit startups🚲 Micromobility vs cars in Europe (and beyond)Visit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2221 min
Newsletter AudiocastAudiocast 04: Mobility NIMBYism & China's battery leadDuring episode 4 of the Audiocast series we cover:The NIMBY trend in mobilityChina’s lead in battery technology for EVsVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2114 minNewsletter AudiocastAudiocast 04: Mobility NIMBYism & China's battery leadDuring episode 4 of the Audiocast series we cover:The NIMBY trend in mobilityChina’s lead in battery technology for EVsVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2114 min
Newsletter AudiocastAudiocast 03: software-defined cabin & American car obesityDuring episode 3 of the Audiocast series we cover:The software-defined cabinAmerican car obesityVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2122 minNewsletter AudiocastAudiocast 03: software-defined cabin & American car obesityDuring episode 3 of the Audiocast series we cover:The software-defined cabinAmerican car obesityVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2122 min
Newsletter AudiocastAudiocast 02: quick commerce, battery prices & car crashesDuring episode 2 of the Audiocast series we cover:Hype cycle: 15 min delivery editionBattery prices going the wrong way and other threats to scaling EVsAmerican roadways hit a new low - er, highVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2119 minNewsletter AudiocastAudiocast 02: quick commerce, battery prices & car crashesDuring episode 2 of the Audiocast series we cover:Hype cycle: 15 min delivery editionBattery prices going the wrong way and other threats to scaling EVsAmerican roadways hit a new low - er, highVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2119 min
Newsletter AudiocastAudiocast 01: tech stocks, Uber v Lyft, the EV race & fleetificationDuring episode 1 of the Audiocast series we cover:Blood on the trading floorUber & Lyft: tale of two companiesPassenger EV raceFleetificationVisit us at red.blue and read more at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2117 minNewsletter AudiocastAudiocast 01: tech stocks, Uber v Lyft, the EV race & fleetificationDuring episode 1 of the Audiocast series we cover:Blood on the trading floorUber & Lyft: tale of two companiesPassenger EV raceFleetificationVisit us at red.blue and read more at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-2117 min
Newsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 05Jul22During this episode we cover:The NIMBY trend in mobility China’s lead in battery technology for EVsVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-0514 minNewsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 05Jul22During this episode we cover:The NIMBY trend in mobility China’s lead in battery technology for EVsVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-07-0514 min
Newsletter AudiocastAnalyst 04: Arndt EllinghorstIn episode 4 of the Analyst series, we speak with Arndt Ellinghorst, whose career across equity research had him recognized as Europe’s top auto analyst. Arndt has long been an expert source on VW, Daimler and BMW. When he switched industries last year, the Financial Times published what could almost be called a eulogy, where Joe Miller described Arndt’s departure from research as leaving deadline-bound journalists bereft.Arndt talks about the research industry, how US, European and Japanese markets differ, the role shareholder activism has played in transforming companies, and his views of the biggest risks & oppo...2022-07-0534 minNewsletter AudiocastAnalyst 04: Arndt EllinghorstIn episode 4 of the Analyst series, we speak with Arndt Ellinghorst, whose career across equity research had him recognized as Europe’s top auto analyst. Arndt has long been an expert source on VW, Daimler and BMW. When he switched industries last year, the Financial Times published what could almost be called a eulogy, where Joe Miller described Arndt’s departure from research as leaving deadline-bound journalists bereft.Arndt talks about the research industry, how US, European and Japanese markets differ, the role shareholder activism has played in transforming companies, and his views of the biggest risks & oppo...2022-07-0534 min
Newsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 17Jun22During this episode we cover:The software-defined cabinAmerican car obesityVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-06-1722 minNewsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 17Jun22During this episode we cover:The software-defined cabinAmerican car obesityVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-06-1722 min
Newsletter AudiocastAnalyst 03: Dan LevyIn episode 3 of the Analyst series, we speak with Dan Levy, who leads Autos coverage at Credit Suisse. Dan ranked as a runner-up in the 2020 II All-America Research survey, his first year of formally covering the Autos & Auto Parts sector. He joined Credit Suisse in 2018. Prior to joining Credit Suisse, Dan spent 7 years at Barclays as part of the US Autos equity research team. We dive into how the automotive industry has changed from being a purely cyclical business to one in which secular trends are coming to define and change the way in which ca...2022-06-1735 minNewsletter AudiocastAnalyst 03: Dan LevyIn episode 3 of the Analyst series, we speak with Dan Levy, who leads Autos coverage at Credit Suisse. Dan ranked as a runner-up in the 2020 II All-America Research survey, his first year of formally covering the Autos & Auto Parts sector. He joined Credit Suisse in 2018. Prior to joining Credit Suisse, Dan spent 7 years at Barclays as part of the US Autos equity research team. We dive into how the automotive industry has changed from being a purely cyclical business to one in which secular trends are coming to define and change the way in which ca...2022-06-1735 min
Newsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 02Jun22During this episode we cover:Hype cycle: 15 min delivery editionBattery prices going the wrong way and other threats to scaling EVsAmerican roadways hit a new low - er, highVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-06-0219 minNewsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 02Jun22During this episode we cover:Hype cycle: 15 min delivery editionBattery prices going the wrong way and other threats to scaling EVsAmerican roadways hit a new low - er, highVisit us at red.blue and dig deeper at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-06-0219 min
Newsletter AudiocastAnalyst 02: Itay MichaeliIn episode 2 of the Analyst series, we speak with Itay Michaeli, who leads Autos coverage at Citi. Itay has covered autos since just before the ‘08 crash, and emerged from that period making early and correct calls on, among other things, the strong rebound of trucks & SUVs which of course are today the most important profit drivers for American OEMs. We covered everything from how to use - and not use - consumer sentiment & purchase activity to forecast trends, to the impact that COVID will have on long term US car ownership rates.Visit us at red.blue an...2022-06-0234 minNewsletter AudiocastAnalyst 02: Itay MichaeliIn episode 2 of the Analyst series, we speak with Itay Michaeli, who leads Autos coverage at Citi. Itay has covered autos since just before the ‘08 crash, and emerged from that period making early and correct calls on, among other things, the strong rebound of trucks & SUVs which of course are today the most important profit drivers for American OEMs. We covered everything from how to use - and not use - consumer sentiment & purchase activity to forecast trends, to the impact that COVID will have on long term US car ownership rates.Visit us at red.blue an...2022-06-0234 min
Newsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 19May22During this episode we cover:Blood on the trading floorUber & Lyft: tale of two companiesPassenger EV raceFleetificationVisit us at red.blue and read more at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-05-1917 minNewsletter AudiocastNewsletter Audiocast - 19May22During this episode we cover:Blood on the trading floorUber & Lyft: tale of two companiesPassenger EV raceFleetificationVisit us at red.blue and read more at news.red.blue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit redbluecapital.substack.com2022-05-1917 min
Newsletter AudiocastAnalyst 01: Philippe HouchoisIn our inaugural episode of the Analyst series, RedBlue speaks with Philippe Houchoise, managing director at Jefferies and head of their equity research for the automotive sector. Philippe has been covering autos in the US and Europe since the early 2000s and was notable for being among the earlier analysts to turn very bullish on Tesla. Philippe shares his view on how cars can create and capture more value by taking on roles beyond transportation. He also shares several moments from his career that really stood out - people he met, things he saw that he just kn...2022-05-1736 minNewsletter AudiocastAnalyst 01: Philippe HouchoisIn our inaugural episode of the Analyst series, RedBlue speaks with Philippe Houchoise, managing director at Jefferies and head of their equity research for the automotive sector. Philippe has been covering autos in the US and Europe since the early 2000s and was notable for being among the earlier analysts to turn very bullish on Tesla. Philippe shares his view on how cars can create and capture more value by taking on roles beyond transportation. He also shares several moments from his career that really stood out - people he met, things he saw that he just kn...2022-05-1736 min
Shift: A podcast about mobilityOlaf Sakkers urges a faster shift from car ownership to ‘trip economy’ (Episode 122)Olaf Sakkers, general partner at mobility-minded venture-capital firm Red Blue Capital, considers progress toward pollution-reduction targets in terms of electric miles rather than electric-vehicle sales. He further advocates for a bolder U.S. infrastructure proposal.2021-10-3148 min
The Rideshare Guy PodcastThe Efficiency of Trip MarketplacesOlaf Sakkers, general partner and cofounder of, RedBlue Capital, joins Harry to talk a bit about his book, Mobility Disruption Framework. Connect with Olaf on Twitter, @osakkers2021-10-2643 min
Ride: The Urban Mobility PodcastEpisode 5: Why CATs and DOGs Will Shape the Future of Urban MobilityGUESTS: Tom Standage, The Economist and Olaf Sakkers, RedBlue CapitalIn this episode, Martin and Jonny are joined by the authors of two new books on the evolution and future of urban mobility. Each has taken a very different angle on urban mobility, the perfect basis for a discussion on how we got to where we are, and how we’re going to get to where we need to be to overcome the growing list of urban mobility challenges.(And you’ll be pleasantly surprised by the amount of time we spent talking about horses, CATs...2021-10-1147 minFast ForwardHow CATS and DOGS Explain the Future of MobilityFast Forward returns with a new fall season of guests…and hosts. Greg Lindsay is joined by CoMotion CEO John Rossant to discuss what attendees can expect at next month’s CoMotion LA, followed by RedBlue Capital’s Olaf Sakkers, who discusses the “trip economy,” his new e-book Mobility Disruption Framework, and why CATS and DOGS are one way to understand the diverging futures of mobility.2021-10-0444 min
The Micromobility PodcastThe Mobility Disruption Framework with Olaf Sakkers2021-09-151h 01
Ride AI120: The Mobility Disruption Framework with Olaf SakkersHey team, this week Oliver interviews Olaf Sakkers about his new book, Mobility Disruption Framework. Olaf is one of the General Partners at Redblue Capital, a new mobility venture investment firm that he founded. Prior to this, he was at Maniv Mobility for 6 years with Michael Granoff, a friend of Micromobility Industries and a previous guest on the podcast. This is one of our favourite episodes. Olaf’s work feels seminal, which is always a good place to start from. It covers a lot of the same ideas covered on this podcast all in one, coherent and cogent framework, and he...2021-09-151h 01Ride AI120: The Mobility Disruption Framework with Olaf SakkersHey team, this week Oliver interviews Olaf Sakkers about his new book, Mobility Disruption Framework. Olaf is one of the General Partners at Redblue Capital, a new mobility venture investment firm that he founded. Prior to this, he was at Maniv Mobility for 6 years with Michael Granoff, a friend of Micromobility Industries and a previous guest on the podcast. This is one of our favourite episodes. Olaf’s work feels seminal, which is always a good place to start from. It covers a lot of the same ideas covered on this podcast all in one, coherent and cogent framework, and he...2021-09-151h 01