Shows
Macro N CheeseEp 327 - Isolation with Bill MitchellAs difficult as it is to get a handle on the chaos and confusion of Trump’s shifting policies, we continue to ask wise friends for their perspective. This week Steve is speaking with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, a founder of MMT and a regular guest of this podcast. Bill helps us unpack the capitalist contradictions driving global instability. Steve asks if we should be looking at Trump’s actions as a continuation of the neoliberal trajectory as described in Bill’s book, Reclaiming the State. Bill replies that he doesn't even see it as a natural extens...2025-05-1055 min
Macro N CheeseEp 321 - Modern Money with L. Randall WraySteve’s guest is noted economist L. Randall Wray, one of the early developers of modern money theory. As many times as this podcast has talked about MMT, it’s always topical. In fact, just last week, Elon Musk discovered 14 magic money computers in government agencies! So, Trump had to hire the richest man in the world who hired who knows how many hundreds of young tech kids to discover what we've been saying for 30 years, which is that Congress appropriates money, and then the computers keystroke it into people's accounts. There's no mystery about this a...2025-03-291h 12
Macro N CheeseEp 319 - DOGE Ball: A True Oligarch Story with Yeva NersisyanNear the start of this episode, Yeva Nersisyan talks with Steve about leftist economists who are still wedded to the belief that government spending relies on taxpayer money. She says if an academic on the left uses the ‘taxpayer dollar’ framing, then you cannot be surprised when the right uses it too – to say they’re saving taxpayer money, cutting wastefulness, cutting inefficiency. It’s why being consistent is so important. If one side can use it, the other side can too.“It leads to the Elon Musks of the world using this taxpayer money trope to basically ta...2025-03-151h 16
Macro N CheeseEp 318 - The Death of the Left? with Simon Winlow & Steve HallIf you ever find yourself asking “What’s left?” you’re in good company. Today’s left is often indistinguishable from neoliberal centrism. Steve’s guests are Simon Winlow and Steve Hall, authors of the book, The Death of the Left: Why We Must Begin from the Beginning Again. They talk about the historical shifts that have led to ideological collapse, disconnection from the working class and the embrace of individualism over collective action.The conversation emphasizes the urgent need for a revival of working-class politics that transcend identity divisions and focus on collective struggles against economic ne...2025-03-081h 00
Macro N CheeseEp 317 - Fatal Distraction with Shealeigh VoitlControl of information is a vital weapon of the ruling class in its war on the people. Critical media literacy is more important now than it has ever been. For the past year we’ve been drowning in imbalanced coverage of the war on Gaza. (How many times did mainstream news outlets use the word ‘genocide’?) It’s just one example – and it’s an outrage. Steve’s guest is Shealeigh Voitl, Project Censored’s digital and print editor. They discuss the media’s role in shaping public perception and delve into the systemic disinformation propagated by corporate and academi...2025-03-0158 min
Macro N CheeseEp 311 - The Electoral Delusion with Jen PerelmanRunning for office is a fool’s errand if you think you can win and radically change the system from within. But an election campaign can serve other purposes for political organizers. A campaign provides a platform, a megaphone... media attention. The process of campaigning puts you in touch with people in the community. As Steve puts it, an election allows you to “build coalitions and radicalize people.” Jen Perelman’s need to run against Debbie Wasserman Schultz was clear: “I knew that we weren't going to win, but we made significant strides in what my bigger mission is...2025-01-181h 01
Macro N CheeseEp 310 - The Inevitability of Luigi Mangione with Jordan CharitonWhen there’s an attack on a high profile (read: white) target in the US, media attention is aimed at the perpetrators. If the act was politically motivated, that fact is either used to explain their psychopathy or dismissed altogether. The December shooting death of a UnitedHealthcare CEO has had a different reaction. As soon as the news broke, public sympathy was drawn to the shooter. The American people have too many horror stories about being denied medical coverage. Jordan Chariton, of Status Coup News, joins Steve to look at the significance of this story as representation of p...2025-01-1158 min
Macro N CheeseEp 307 - Rights for Machines? AI's Ethical Future with James BoyleCan you imagine granting personhood to AI entities? Well, some of us couldn’t imagine granting personhood to corporations. And yet... look how that panned out.In this episode, Steve talks with Duke law professor James Boyle about his new book, The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood. James explains the development of his interest in the topic; it began with the idea of empathy. (Then) moved to the idea of AI as the analogy to corporate personhood. And then the final thing – and maybe the most interesting one to me – is how encounters wi...2024-12-1452 min
Macro N CheeseEp 299 - Coup Save MMT with Sean St. Heart**Our Substack brings every new episode of this podcast as well timely alerts about our book clubs and webinars and reminders for Tuesday night’s gatherings of Macro ‘n Chill. All this and more, straight to your inbox. Subscribe now: realprogressives.substack.com Recently, Steve appeared with host Sean St. Heart on Coup Save America, a weekly podcast committed to breaking through political rhetoric and focusing our attention on the core problems affecting our nation. The episode’s title was Exploring Modern Monetary Theory with Steve Grumbine, but of course it’s almost impossible to limit an MMT conve...2024-10-191h 08
Macro N CheeseEp 298 - YIMBYism is Code for Gentrification with David FieldsIf NIMBY is the classist rejection of affordable housing ("Not in my back yard”), then YIMBY is sold as the progressive counter to it: “Yes, in my back yard; because I believe affordable housing should be widely available, even in my own neighborhood.” But of course, housing development has nothing to do with the needs of the poor or the working class. It has nothing to do with the public purpose. Steve’s guest, political economist David Fields, explains: “YIMBY is yes to housing in my backyard, but housing for developers to extract profit from land value. So b...2024-10-121h 04
Macro N CheeseEp 297 - Exposing the Titans of Capital with Peter PhillipsThe titans of capital aren’t just the obscenely wealthy. They are the directors of transnational finance companies; they manage the money of the obscenely wealthy.Steve’s guest, political sociologist Peter Phillips, is the author of Titans of Capital: How Concentrated Wealth Threatens Humanity. The titans, he says, have doubled their AUM (assets under management) in the past 5 years.“There's only 117 of them and they manage $50 trillion of capital. That $50 trillion is the core –– almost half of the free-floating capital in the world. And that is what the US calls a vital interest. So, when the US say...2024-10-0548 min
Macro N CheeseEp 295 - Degrowth Through Social Movements with Erin RemblanceWhen people reject the concept of degrowth are they suggesting society continue to allow capital to ravage the earth? Are they saying the countries of the global North should continue exploiting and extracting from the global South? Are they pushing for more growth? Steve’s guest, Erin Remblance is an Australian researcher and activist who was spurred into action six years ago when the IPCC released their special report on global warming of 1.5°C. Since then, Erin has been creating courses, events, and materials that address the crises and work toward solutions. Erin and Steve dis...2024-09-211h 00
Macro N CheeseEp 292 - The Conflict of Class, Democracy & Universal Basic Services with Tony from 1DimeMacro N Cheese brings you another twist. A couple of months ago, Steve appeared as a guest on 1Dime Radio in a two-part series that we’re now presenting as a single episode. Tony has been on our podcast several times, now Steve is on his turf. The result is a productive meeting of the minds. He and Steve both view the world through a Marxist lens, and they both agree Marxists need MMT. The discussion goes into the American Revolution as they consider the possibility of democracy in a modern capitalist system. They examine bourgeois cont...2024-08-311h 45
Macro N CheeseEp 290 - After the Collapse with Brett ScottThe 2024 fictional film “Civil War” shows an America that has been fractured into armed factions. It’s not the dystopian fantasy that interests us here, however, it’s the collapse of the currency! In the movie, the US dollar has lost its value, like the fate of Confederate money after the (real) US Civil War. With his imagination piqued by the film, Steve asked Brett Scott, author and monetary theorist, to help us think about the dynamics of commerce, currency, and systemic forces in times of societal collapse and global capitalism. Brett and Steve look at histo...2024-08-171h 17
Macro N CheeseEp 289 - Deprogramming Hasbara with Jonathan Kadmon“I was still a true believer, but doubts were starting to creep in at a certain point when you saw a large segment of our coalition cheering the brutal death of Rachel Corrie under a Caterpillar D9 bulldozer. And then, you know, a month later, cheering for the death of Tom Hurndall who was killed protecting a Palestinian child from Israeli snipers and was shot in the head by an expert marksman looking through a scope.” Jonathan Kadmon is on the leadership team of Real Progressives and writes for the website. He also helps put out this podcast. Today, howe...2024-08-101h 25
Macro N CheeseEp 285 - We the Poisoned: No One Will Save Us with Jordan CharitonWhen corporations are guilty of poisoning the population, it is newsworthy. When state and local governments are complicit, it is newsworthy. Yet the US media refuses to cover some of the most scandalous and tragic stories of our time, despite overwhelming evidence of corporate and government culpability.Jordan Chariton, CEO of Status Coup, has many years of experience working for both mainstream and independent news organizations. He and Steve discuss the media’s role in perpetuating the distorted narrative. If they’re not ignoring the facts, they’re misrepresenting them. Jordan talks about his continuing coverage...2024-07-131h 01
Macro N CheeseEp 283 - Can Unions Survive the Struggle Within? with Traven Leyshon** For a full transcript of this and every episode of the podcast, go to our website, where you will also find an “Extras” section with information and links to resources discussed in the episode. realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/ At Macro N Cheese we’ve been having an ongoing conversation about the need for radical change in the labor movement and the rise of class struggle unionism. Traven Leyshon is president of the Green Mountain Central Labour Council and part of the leadership team of the Vermont State Labour Council. Traven, who has over five decades of...2024-06-2952 min
Macro N CheeseEp 280 - MMT Gives Labor Its Wings with Tschaff ReisbergIn this episode, Steve has a conversation with Tschäff (pronounced “Jeff”) Reisberg, the secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council and a professional flight attendant, about the vital role of the labor movement through the lens of MMT. They look at the intersection of movement building and labor's role, emphasizing that real economic advocacy should lead to tangible change. Steve contrasts this to the naivety of relying solely on voting within a captured oligarchic system. They discuss historical and current labor struggles, touching on the need for transforming unions from business unionism to class struggle...2024-06-0853 min
Macro N CheeseEp 279 - Seeking Solidarity with Steve Hall**Each episode of Macro N Cheese has an “Extras” section filled with information and links to resources related to topics touched on in the interview. Go to https://realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/ where you will also find a full transcript of the episode. Steve Grumbine’s guest is Steve Hall, a Professor Emeritus of Criminology who has published in the fields of criminology, sociology, anthropology, history, economic history, political theory and philosophy. The discussion covers a range of political and economic issues, including class consciousness and unity among the working class in the US and Europe. They dis...2024-06-011h 15
Macro N CheeseEp 277 - Be the Revolution with Jay Ponti**On Tuesday evening we’re holding a listening party and informal discussion of this episode. Join us for Macro ‘n Chill. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZArcuqsqD0tH92MxVmJIqj4PHtojQGgFl2l Grassroots political organizer Jay Ponti talks with Steve about his book, "Be the Revolution: How Occupy Wall Street and the Bernie Sanders Movement Reshaped American Politics." Jay maintains that there’s a vibrant network of people doing great work that isn’t covered by corporate media. “Politicians are not heroes who can save us. We have to save ourselves. That's what the Occup...2024-05-181h 00
Macro N CheeseEp 274 - Is Bail Reform the Answer? with Jeff ClaytonWhen most of us think about bail, we focus on the financial burden it presents to the accused. This week’s guest is Jeffrey J. Clayton, Executive Director of the American Bail Coalition. He talks to Steve about the complicated anti-democratic trap that is our criminal justice system.Jeff explains that across the US there are plans in place to eliminate bail. (One would think that’s good news. One would be wrong.) In reality, these plans result in greater violations of civil liberties. Bail is being replaced by pre-trial incarceration and risk assessment tools using computer algo...2024-04-2743 min
Macro N CheeseEp 272 - Assange: In Defense of Journalists & Whistleblowers with Kevin Gosztola“Assange is being targeted by the US government because he doesn't conform to the dominant culture of the US prestige media. He's not going to be invited to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. He's not going to be given a Pulitzer. He's not going to be treated as one of them.”Steve’s guest is journalist Kevin Gosztola, author of Guilty of Journalism: The Political Case Against Julian Assange. Kevin has been advocating for freedom of the press since the George W. Bush administration and the imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.Steve and Kevin...2024-04-1354 min
Macro N CheeseEp 270 - Class, Capitalism, and MMT with Bill MitchellA hundred years ago, John Maynard Keynes predicted we would see a massive expansion of growth and productivity under capitalism. Bingo. He got that right. He said this amazing efficiency would result in a shorter work week with far more leisure time for everyone. Oops. Not so much. The structure of capital ownership will never permit it.Bill Mitchell’s blog post, Keynes Was Wrong Because He Failed to Consider Class Conflict, was the inspiration for this episode. Bill talks with Steve about many of the truths about capitalism economists and historians get wrong, beginning with the id...2024-03-301h 10
Macro N CheeseEp 269 - Finding Your Why with Steve GrumbineThis episode of Macro N Cheese is dedicated to Steve’s mom, Joan Grumbine. Her kindness, love, and unwavering dedication to her family and community will be deeply missed. May she rest in peace.In his first solo episode, our host and jefe, Steve Grumbine, recounts the story of his political transformation from conservative republican to passionate MMT advocate, to self-identified socialist.He begins the episode talking about his recent experience dealing with the medical system as his mother’s health declined. Both parents’ deaths illustrate the fact that a for-profit system cannot...2024-03-231h 17
Macro N CheeseEp 266 - Les Milei with Daniel Conceição** Reminder: You are invited to listen to and discuss this episode with friends from Real Progressives on Tuesday, March 5th. Find the Zoom link at https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/“If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness.” — Victor HugoDaniel Conceição talks with Steve about Argentina’s economic immiseration under newly elected president Javier Milei.Milei’s aggressive cuts to public spending don’t address the root cause of inflation in Argentina. Because of the...2024-03-021h 05
Macro N CheeseEp 265 - Is Marx Still Relevant? with Steve Maher**To discuss this episode among friends, come to our listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, on Tuesday February 27th at 8pm ET/5pm PT. For the link go to our Events Calendar https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar“But fortunately for us, human nature is precisely the capacity to be creative; to imagine a different way of living together and to bring that into being through our conscious and deliberate actions by working together, by fighting for a different world against the class power that is interested in perpetuating things as they are. And so we can, through acting on the worl...2024-02-2454 min
Macro N CheeseEp 264 - Deconstructing the Colonial Archetype with Fadhel Kaboub** If you haven’t yet come to our Tuesday night listening party, this is the week to do so. Join the Real Progressives community as we dive in and discuss this episode. The registration link is posted on our Events Calendar prior to each Tuesday’s session — it’s usually up by Saturday. Look for Macro ‘n Chill. https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/This week Steve talks with our friend, economist Fadhel Kaboub. Followers of this podcast will recognize some of the themes we regularly focus on, including the debt trap facing countries of the global South, and the need f...2024-02-1756 min
Macro N CheeseEp 258 - Wall Street’s War on Workers with Les LeopoldBefore the 1980s, mass layoffs were often tied to economic recessions. Today, they are shrewd corporate strategy. Modern mass layoffs are connected to leveraged buyouts or stock buybacks. Steve’s guest, Les Leopold, explains how the process works and how it came to be through the maneuverings of Wall Street and the two political parties.Les is the author of Wall Street’s War on Workers. He and Steve talk about the very real impact on people’s lives, from the coal miners of Mingo County, West Virginia, to Steve’s personal struggles after Verizon’s 2009 lay-offs. They discu...2024-01-0652 min
Macro N CheeseEp 257 - The Case For Palestine with Dan KovalikIn his third appearance on Macro N Cheese, Dan Kovalik talks with Steve about his upcoming book, The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care. As with many of our guests, the episode is more of a conversation – a passionate one – than an interview.“First of all ... this conflict did not begin on October 7th, though we're led to believe it did. This conflict – well, it depends on when you want to say it started – but certainly a good starting place is 1948 in the Nakba, when 700,000 to 900,000 Palestinians were violently displaced by Israelis who came in to...2023-12-3045 min
Macro N CheeseEp 254 - IMPACT: Climate Reparations with Fadhel KaboubFadhel Kaboub is back for his lucky 13th episode. He talks with Steve about the concept of climate reparations and its significance in tackling the climate crisis. True reparations go beyond financial compensation; they must include transferring technology, repairing our ecosystem, and restructuring the global financial and trade systems.The global North must not shirk its historic responsibility and disproportionate impact of climate change on the Global South. Fadhel and Steve discuss the need for truth and reconciliation as a starting point for reparations. They highlight the significance of addressing the structural issues that perpetuate harm. Fadhel...2023-12-091h 09
Macro N CheeseEp 250 - Dismantling Green Colonialism Part 2 with Hamza HamoucheneThis week’s episode is the second half of Steve’s interview with Hamza Hamouchene about his book, Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region.Steve and Hamza agree on the importance of reckoning with the realities of the current capitalist imperialist system, which has proven to be a failure in addressing the most crucial needs of people and planet. Hamza argues that alternative visions for a better world already exist – he himself is an eco-socialist – but the challenge lies in implementing them and building the necessary alliances and coalitions of working people, both at...2023-11-1145 min
Macro N CheeseEp 244 - The Trouble with Lula with Daniel ConceiçãoA head of state whose economic policies promote austerity and fiscal responsibility is:ConservativeProgressiveN/A (not applicable)Daniel Conceição is with us for his third visit to Macro N Cheese. He and Steve discuss the failures of both right and left governments. Some broad strokes of Brazil’s historical patterns are not so different from those in the US. The last left(ish) president, Dilma Rousseff, abandoned her Leninist roots and hopped aboard the privatization train. It wasn’t enough to protect her from impeachment, however.It’s easy to see parallels between Bolsonar...2023-09-3046 min
Macro N CheeseEp 240 - Can Unions Reclaim the Strike? with Joe Burns“I think within every labor struggle is a kernel of a broader transformation of society. So, it's interesting because Harry Bridges, who was the longtime leader of the longshore workers on the West Coast from the 1930s to the 1960s, when he talked about strike, he said every strike is a mini-revolution.”On the eve of the strike authorization vote by American Airlines flight attendants, Joe Burns spoke with Steve about the labor movement, unions, and class struggle. Joe, a labor lawyer and negotiator, has been a guest on Macro N Cheese twice before. His focus, then and now, is o...2023-09-0254 min
Macro N CheeseEp 236 - The Double Objective of Democratic Ecosocialism with Jason HickelThe title of this week’s episode is taken from an article to be published in September’s Monthly Review. The author, Jason Hickel, talks to Steve about the topic in his third visit to the podcast.Before we look at the double objective of ecosocialism we must analyze the double crisis we’re facing – ecological and social. Both are caused by the same underlying issue: the capitalist mode of production.Capitalism creates an almost perfect circuit that begins and ends with commodification and enclosure. Well, actually, it ends with massive profits... and that...2023-08-0555 min
Macro N CheeseEp 233 - Managed Democracy and Inverted Totalitarianism in the USA with 1Dime“People talk about campaign finance being the problem as to why ‘progressive’ politicians can't get elected. But that's more of an effect of this rather than the cause, because let's say, Citizens United, the court ruling which now allows corporations to pretty much give unlimited donations to candidates. That's just the most recent evolution of a system which precludes all possibility for radical change.”Our guest this week is 1Dime, a content creator on YouTube and the podcast, 1Dime Radio, and a graduate student in political science. The interview is another stop on Steve’s journey to find the int...2023-07-1559 min
Macro N CheeseEp 228 - Full Employment with Pavlina TchernevaWhen economist Pavlina Tcherneva was last on this podcast, we were a few months into the pandemic. She and Steve talked about nationalizing payroll and the heightened need for a federal job guarantee during a time of crisis.In this episode, the neoliberal approach to unemployment comes under scrutiny. Pavlina explains the inadequacy of official unemployment data. She looks at the problem from several angles, including geography, demographics, and of course, economics.Pavlina and Steve discuss MMT, the politics of NAIRU, and the debt ceiling. They look at a job guarantee as...2023-06-1058 min
Macro N CheeseEp 226 - Putting BRICS into Perspective with Yan LiangDr. Yan Liang joins Steve to talk about China’s role in the global economy and the concept of “de-dollarization.” It’s refreshing to hear a discussion of these issues without hyperbole, but you know that already; that’s why you come to Macro N Cheese.Countries of the global south have suffered chronic debt and financial crises due to the neoliberal regime of the US and its allies. After the 2008 financial crisis, China has been diversifying its foreign exchange reserves and establishing currency swaps with more trading partners. The goal is to dilute the power of the dollar...2023-05-271h 10
Macro N CheeseChina and the Labor of Reinvention with Lin ZhangDr. Lin Zhang talks with Steve about her book "The Labor of Reinvention: Entrepreneurship in the New Chinese Digital Economy."Her book includes stories of individuals who transformed themselves and their lives to take advantage of this new global economy. She tells of Min, a former prisoner...“I think Min's story in a way captures the sort of imperative of entrepreneurialism in which we are all still living. The contemporary capitalist economy. The need to kind of keep reinventing oneself to adapt to the constant changes, but also the kind of contradiction generated on personal and co...2023-05-2056 min
Macro N CheeseEp 224 - European Union and the Post Pandemic Economy with Dirk EhntsIt’s been almost two years since we’ve had German economist Dirk Ehnts on the podcast. This episode can be seen as part of Steve’s ongoing look at “dedollarization” and what it means to be the world’s reserve currency. They turn the MMT lens toward the Eurozone, comparing governments’ responses to the pandemic, inflation, and the treatment of labor.“So of course the labor laws are different in Germany compared to Italy, to France and so on. If the French workers go on strikes, they burn stuff. It's always amazing for us Germans to see it happening, bu...2023-05-1355 min
Macro N CheeseEp 223 - Messaging For Mainstream with Bijou SmithNew Zealander Bijou Smith is a longtime friend of Steve and the podcast. His story, in brief: “I was a physicist. I love physics, theoretical physics, but when I learned a bit about economics—I was always interested in economics from a sort of dynamical systems analysis perspective. It's kind of interesting mathematics. Even the neoclassical stuff is interesting for a little while until you realize it's a joke. But then when I heard about MMT, a lot of the pieces clicked into placed and it's like, wow, this is really the struggle.” MMT is a bell that can’t be unr...2023-05-0657 min
Macro N CheeseEp 221 - Taiwan: Manufacturing Consent with Carl ZhaCarl Zha brings us his knowledge of China, the US, and global political economic relations. He also brings his exquisite sense of the absurd.Exactly one year ago, Carl and Steve recorded their marathon discussion of Chinese history, resulting in three episodes about Mao. This time, they have Taiwan in their sights. Just like Joe Biden.Official US policy on Taiwan is just ambiguous enough to allow plenty of shenanigans, despite recognizing “one China” since the 1970s.“We know how the Cold War 1.0 played out. We isolated the Soviet...2023-04-2257 min
Macro N CheeseEp 220 - Left of Boom with Bill BlackIt’s been two years since Bill Black was last on with Steve. We’ve invited several guests to talk about the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, so it only makes sense to ask our whistleblower friend to weigh in. Bill and Steve discuss what it means to be too big to fail. When an institution is too big to fail, the creditors get bailed out, but then, Bill says, “really really bad things have happened.” “...they hold the economy hostage. And nowadays they hold the global economy hostage. And if you hold the global...2023-04-151h 02
Macro N CheeseEp 218 - Beware! the Counter-Revolution with C. Derick VarnC. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, and “arm-chair theorist” (his words, not ours), but Steve called on him for his deep knowledge of history, specifically the history of revolutions.Varn takes a realistic and nuanced look at some of the popular myths about the brutality of key figures, like Stalin and Mao. He suggests placing them in the context of historical geopolitical economic conditions.I'm also just going to remind people that both the Bolshevik Revolution and the Chinese Revolution, in particular, come out of the context of world wars. They happen when...2023-04-011h 16
Macro N CheeseSurfing the Wayback Machine: 2017 with Fadhel KaboubDr. Fadhel Kaboub was recently appointed Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC), an international intergovernmental organisation founded by countries from across the Global South. In honor of Fadhel’s new position, we’re releasing Steve’s very first interview with him from back in the day when we live streamed onto Facebook. Steve thinks his questions are very different today — more disciplined. Some of us can’t get over how young he sounded. It was only five years ago!Fadhel and Steve discuss the spectrum of monetary sovereignty from full sovereignty to complet...2023-03-041h 07
Macro N CheeseEp 210 - American Exception with Aaron GoodIf Macro N Cheese wasn’t committed to spreading MMT to the activist community, we might have been a history podcast. Nothing excites Steve Grumbine as much as listening to 50 hours of lectures on the French Revolution or the Black Plague. This week’s guest, Aaron Good, checks a lot of our boxes. What he brings to the table is history with a solid class analysis.Aaron is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. American exception should not be confused with American exceptionalism; think instead of the concept of laws applying to everyone EXCE...2023-02-041h 00
Macro N CheeseJapan: A Case Study in MMT with Bill Mitchell**After the episode, visit our “Extras” page where you’ll find links to Bill Mitchell’s blog, books, MMT education course, and more. Every episode of this podcast is also accompanied by a full transcript. realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/**Usually when Steve and his guests talk about culture, they’re referring to that of neoliberalism. As Scott Ferguson says, neoliberalism isn’t just enmeshed in our popular and esthetic culture; it is our culture. “There’s no enmeshing; it IS neoliberalism—what in the Marxist tradition we call etiology, the kind of background assumptions and values that structure our innermost thou...2022-12-171h 07
Macro N CheeseSystem Dynamics and the Minsky Model with Tyrone Keynes** Check out the transcript for this and every episode of Macro N Cheese on the Real Progressives website. This week’s episode looks at using a recently developed economic model application developed by frequent Macro N Cheese guest, Steve Keen. The software is aptly named “Minsky” and Steve Grumbine’s guest, Tyrone Keynes, is an experienced user of the Minsky software modelling tool. Tyrone is a consultant whose specialties are economics, health, and ecological modelling systems. Steve and Tyrone walk through the steps to develop processes that they both similarly follow to build a...2022-12-0357 min
Macro N CheeseEp 200 - Africa's Place in the Multi-Polar Order with Fadhel Kaboub**Thank you to our listeners! Can you believe this is our 200th episode? Crazy, right? Well, it wouldn’t have been possible without the efforts of a dedicated team. Our sound editor and engineer, Andy Kennedy, has spent thousands of hours (literally) producing these weekly gems. Then there’s the diligent band of copy editors—Brad Sandler, Jonathan Kadmon, Jay Spencer, and yours truly, Virginia Cotts, (plus, in earlier days, Rose Ann Rabiola Miele and Rob Baxter)—who pore over every AI-generated transcript, correcting mistakes and fixing punctuation for clarity. Julie Alberding, the RP website’s reigning eminence, created the layout...2022-11-261h 02
Macro N CheeseThe Trinity of Austerity with Clara Mattei“Austerity is the best weapon they have to try to convince. And if they can't convince, they can't coerce. So in my book, I say austerity plays with a double strategy: coercion and consensus.”Clara Mattei is the author of The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity & Paved the Way to Fascism, published this month. Steve Grumbine, who uses the Twitter display name “Austerity is murder,” was drawn to her position that austerity is not just bad economic theory prescribing bad economic policy. That is a simplistic framing that ultimately depoliticizes austerity.Many on the left tie the birt...2022-11-121h 10
Macro N CheeseTrussonomics with Neil Wilson** Check out the transcript for this and every episode of Macro N Cheese at the Real Progressives website.Grumbine: I follow a lot of Brits on Twitter, and not just regular rank and file activists, but a lot of the actual economists. And the folks that are considered left, very strongly remind me of neoliberals.Wilson: Because they are. [laughter] What we have, you see, is this wonderful thing called the Oxford degree in philosophy, politics and economics [PPE]. And what happens is, when they graduate from that, there's a Sorting Hat, and it just puts them in...2022-10-2249 min
Macro N CheesePakistan in Crisis with Aqdas Afzal** To donate to the flood relief effort in Pakistan, please visit the Prime Minister’s Flood Relief Fund 2022How do we unpack a problem like this year’s floods in Pakistan? Where do we place the blame? Steve invited our friend Aqdas Afzal back on the podcast to discuss his recent article, “Collapse of Civilizations.”The article’s title is a cheeky play on Samuel Huntington’s “Clash of Civilizations,” which predicted massive conflict between the world’s non-white, non-Christian peoples and the global North. Coincidentally, the countries of the global North have profited quit...2022-10-1559 min
Macro N CheeseEp 191 - Can We Make Money Work For Us? with L. Randall WrayGrumbine: Can we have too much money? Wray: Yes, we surely can. Usually, our problem is that there's too much bank money, and the usual consequence is a financial crisis. Obviously, Steve and his guest are talking about the nation, not their own wallets. In this episode, he welcomes L. Randall Wray to Macro N Cheese for the eighth time to talk about Randy’s new book, "Making Money Work for Us: How MMT Can Save America," which will be released in America in November. Our listeners know they can co...2022-09-241h 20
Macro N CheeseImports, Exports and Empire with Bill MitchellIn a recent episode of Macro N Cheese, Steve spoke with a guest about the MMT view of exports as a benefit and imports as a cost. There ensued some disagreement on social media (where else?) This week Steve invited Bill Mitchell to weigh in on the topic. As their discussion develops, this becomes an episode we’d recommend to anyone who is still unclear on the meaning and consequences of foreign trade deficits.“Exports have to be a cost because you're foregoing real resources that you could use yourself. And imports have to be a benefit because you...2022-07-301h 21
Macro N CheeseThe End of Dollar Diplomacy? with Steve Keen and Michael Hudson**A transcript is available for this and every episode of the podcast at realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/ where you will also find an Extras page with links to resources related to the episode.**In one of the most exciting pairings we’ve had on this podcast, Michael Hudson and Steve Keen join Steve Grumbine to talk about geopolitics, international production and trade, the climate crisis, and a bit of MMT.Grumbine begins by asking them to address Warren Mosler’s position that imports are a benefit and exports are a cost. Keen and Huds...2022-07-0953 min
Macro N CheeseEp 177 - Economic Superorganism with Carey KingThis episode of Macro N Cheese introduces us to Dr. Carey King of the University of Texas at Austin where he performs research and modeling of energy systems interaction with the economy past, present and future. He has published a book, The Economic Superorganism describing his research extrapolating the results into policy suggestions.Steve opens the episode describing the term “real resources” and asks Dr. King to explain the approach he took in his book. The explanation reaches back into history to the 14th century all the way to the present. Through that time span, he discovered that...2022-06-1859 min
Macro N CheeseInflation: The Fed's Crash Landing with L. Randall WrayReal Progressives and Macro N Cheese are committed to bringing MMT to activists and folks with no background in economics. Many of us were only interested in learning how MMT disrupts the concept of taxes funding federal programs, but the more we know, the more we want to understand. MMT is funny that way.If you’re new to MMT, this week’s interview with L. Randall Wray might appear to be wonky and intimidating. But we urge you to listen and promise it will be worth it. We’ve had a few episodes dealing with inflation in rec...2022-05-2159 min
Macro N CheesePakistan's False Dawn and the Beginning of History with Aqdas AfzalA false dawn is a promising situation which comes to nothing. This is how Aqdas Afzal describes the situation in his native Pakistan and India at the end of the Raj.“The point to remember here, Steve, is that the British were in India not to govern. They were in India to extract surplus and to maintain what they called law and order. And so the British left without giving the local people any taste or mechanism for bringing about accountability or democracy. But they did leave behind these two very, almost draconian institutions for keeping law and or...2022-05-1454 min
Macro N CheeseInvesting in Sustainability with Paul Herman** If you haven’t checked out the transcripts and extra resources for all 166 episodes of Macro N Cheese, what are you waiting for? Go to realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast **Steve opens this episode with the MMT observation of the government’s ability to purchase anything for sale in US dollars if the real sources are available – and if we have the political will. When it comes to getting things done, this is of fundamental importance. Steve's guest, Paul Herman, agrees and looks beyond the government:“...because we have five crises of our time, and those cr...2022-04-0258 min
Macro N CheeseEverything You Heard About China is Wrong with Vincent HuangWhat do you know about modern China? Is it capitalist? Socialist? What do those terms mean in today’s global economies? According to Steve’s guest Vincent Huang, China considers itself “a socialist market economy with Chinese characteristics.” In this episode, Vincent tells Steve how this socialist market economy plays out in Chinese society, and how it compares to the world we know in the US – and just about everywhere else. There’s a stark difference in the power wielded by corporations, for example. In China...The state is the representative, it's the agent that mediates the conflicts between the...2022-02-051h 09
Macro N CheeseFoundations with Warren Mosler**Have you seen the Rogue Scholar, Steve Grumbine’s new brown bag lunch show on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays at noon EST? For interviews, commentary, and, of course, MMT, go to Real Progress in Action on YouTube.Newcomers to MMT tend to draw a blank when they are told that taxes drive the currency or taxes created the first unemployed person. After all, none of that seems to track with the way they personally experience taxes. Warren Mosler makes sense of it by starting with the money story, using the example of colonial currency. The British wanted wo...2022-01-2954 min
Macro N CheeseEp 156 - Doughnuts with Steven HailMacro N Cheese devotes considerable attention to ecological economics and environmental justice. We’re always working to expand our understanding of both. Dr. Hail connects the dots between environmental sustainability and the broader public purpose. It’s a focus of his new podcast, “Modern Money Doughnut”.But that's done best of all in Kate's book, when she talks about the doughnut, when she talks about moving away from growthism, from pursuing the growth of GDP as though that is an end in itself, and towards identifying those things which ought to be true of a successful society that provides...2022-01-221h 05
Macro N CheeseSustainability: The New Economics with Stephen Williams and Phil LawnStephen Williams and Philip Lawn join Steve to discuss the forthcoming book, Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory, which Williams co-edited. The book brings together sustainability, ecological economics, and MMT.As you learn more and more about this thing called sustainability, you realize that it's really the economic system that is at the heart of the problem. It's the economic system you have to change. So when you start studying what we usually call heterodox economics, you soon start to learn about something called ecological economics, which Phil is an expert in...2022-01-0855 min
Macro N CheeseEp 151 - Can Blockchain Help the Left? with The Blockchain SocialistThe Blockchain Socialist wants to dispel the notion that blockchain technology can only serve a right-wing libertarian agenda. In this week’s episode, he tells Steve the left loses out when new trends or innovations are introduced into the economy. Blockchain is a neutral tool on which we can build different types of organizations and institutions. He speaks of the risks taken when groups use Google Docs for organizing their information. Google’s removal of access to Palestinian activists should be seen as a threat to the left.The Blockchain Socialist – let's call him TBS – created his blog and...2021-12-1848 min
Macro N CheeseStorming the Ivory Tower with Davarian BaldwinDo you think of colleges and universities as protected islands of intellectual activity, ivory towers where the world’s problems are contemplated and debated? Steve Grumbine’s guest is here to tell us otherwise. Davarian Baldwin, of Trinity College, is an urban historian and social theorist, whose work examines the landscape of global cities through the lens of the African Diasporic experience. His most recent book is In the Shadow of the Ivory Tower: How Universities are Plundering Our Cities.Baldwin describes how institutions of higher education are the largest employers, healthcare providers, and landlords in cities and town...2021-12-0459 min
Macro N CheeseParticipatory Economics with Michael AlbertMichael Albert is one of the creators of participatory economics (parecon) and has developed a vision for a post-capitalist world that includes participatory governance. His new book, No Bosses, A New Economy for a Better World, goes into detail. From Noam Chomsky’s endorsement:*No Bosses* describes and advocates a natural and built Commons, workers’ and consumers’ self-managing councils, a division of labor that balances empowering tasks among all workers, a norm that apportions income for duration, intensity, and onerousness of socially valued labor, and finally not markets or central planning, but instead participatory planning by workers and consum...2021-11-2759 min
Macro N CheeseThe Fall of Evergrande with Robert HockettSomber headlines recall the 2008 financial crisis: “Global financial markets have been on high alert,” warns the BBC. “Chinese property giant Evergrande is on the brink of collapse, and analysts warn the potential fallout could have far-reaching implications that spill outside China’s borders,” says CNBC. From the New York Times: “Every once in a while a company grows so big and messy that governments fear what would happen to the broader economy if it were to fail.”To navigate this story, we needed someone immune to hysteria, so Steve invited the infinitely sensible Robert Hockett to guide us through the Ev...2021-11-0653 min
Macro N CheeseEp 143 - Whither the Next Rebellion with Jamie SkillenIn 2014, Nevada cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters engaged in armed confrontation with law enforcement. Bundy had been embroiled in a 21-year legal dispute with the US Bureau of Land Management. The “Bundy Standoff” was splashed across the news, allowing the public to watch as Cliven Bundy became a hero – a symbol of conservative America under attack by the federal government.This week, Jamie Skillen talks with Steve Grumbine about the history and politics of federal lands. Skillen’s book, This Land is My Land, traces three periods of rebellion against federal land authority over the past for...2021-10-2351 min
Macro N CheeseThe New Liberals with Steve Keen & Victor KlineThis week we’re checking in with a couple of candidates from The New Liberals (TNL) of Australia. We’ll be learning about the traditional Australian political parties and getting an overview of how their electoral system works.Steve Keen is an old friend of this podcast. In the past he’s joined us to talk about everything from climate change to Marx to the breakdown of supply chains during the COVID pandemic. Now we’re meeting him as a political candidate; soon Professor Keen will be Senator Keen. Victor Kline, the leader and one of the founders of TNL...2021-10-0956 min
Macro N CheeseThe Lightbulb Moment with Malcolm ReavellMMT, at its most fundamental, shows us the difference between a currency user and the currency issuer. This reality affects policy decisions in ways it would be foolish to ignore. As Fadhel Kaboub and Bill Black explained here recently, even if it were possible to create some inadequate public programs at the state level, they will stall the progressive agenda.Malcolm Reavell of Modern Money Scotland talks to Steve about the parallel situation he and his compatriots are facing. Scotland’s annual budget is determined and controlled by Westminster, the Parliament of the UK.Every year th...2021-09-1853 min
Macro N CheeseThe Flint Water Crisis with Jordan CharitonStatus Coup Media's co-founder and CEO Jordan Chariton joins Real Progressives’ founder and CEO Steve Grumbine for a discussion of our crumbling infrastructure, our inept and complicit corporate media monolith, and they share some ideas about our options going forward.This conversation seems like a perfectly segued culmination of Jordan’s recent RP Live presentation on the corporate media cover-up of issues like Flint’s notorious water crisis and climate change related issues as well as last week’s Macro N Cheese episode on infrastructure with Bob Hockett. As Jordan has repeatedly asserted, the infrastructure issues plaguing Flint, MI are p...2021-08-2855 min
Macro N CheeseInfrastructure with Robert HockettThis week Steve brings back Robert Hockett to help us understand the big “I” word - infrastructure.Our focus on particular infrastructure depends on the social or public goals we have in mind. If we are a society that values mobility, we will concern ourselves with transportation infrastructure. If this were the 19th or early 20th centuries, we would be prioritizing infrastructure that facilitates industrial productivity. There’s also such a thing as “soft infrastructure.”It's probably worth noting that a lot of public policy discussion these days seems to be about social productivity. Right? To what exten...2021-08-211h 20
Macro N CheeseEp 126 - An MMT Perspective: Interest Rates and Inflation with Warren MoslerReal Progressives is on a mission to bring Modern Monetary Theory to the layperson. We don’t assume you’ve studied economics, only that you’re open-minded and curious. Once the MMT light bulb goes on, it reveals a myriad of implications, making it a powerful tool for political activists and organizers. It’s almost impossible to think of a political agenda unaffected.Some Macro N Cheese episodes can be difficult for newcomers, but it’s worth sticking with us. All will be revealed!Steve’s guest this week is Warren Mosler, the man who...2021-06-261h 05
Macro N CheeseThe Race to the Bottom with Fadhel Kaboub and Bill BlackTo unpack the confusion around the push for state-based vs federal programs, it’s necessary to understand the race to the bottom. So this is where Steve Grumbine begins his interview with Bill Black and Fadhel Kaboub. The inequities among the Eurozone nations have their parallel in the US. At both the global and national levels, the race to the bottom affects labor standards, environmental regulations, tax rates, and basic services. To understand this, we always turn to the MMT explanation of the difference between a currency issuer and a currency user.The federal government can afford to pr...2021-06-121h 13
Macro N CheeseThe Case Against a Universal Basic Income with Bill MitchellProfessor Bill Mitchell was our very first guest on Macro N Cheese, and now here he is, 122 weeks later. Episode #1 was Putting the T in MMT. This week Steve asks him to discuss the single policy prescription at the core of MMT - the Federal Job Guarantee. The discussion goes into the parameters and nuance of the FJG and the pitfalls of a Universal Basic Income as a competing possibility.Bill asserts that implementing a UBI to deal with unemployment and poverty would be capitulating to the neoliberal claim that government is helpless in the face of unemployment...2021-05-2959 min
Macro N CheeseWhat Marx Got Wrong with Steve KeenSteve Keen can be counted on to bring a unique and controversial perspective. This time he turns his critical gaze toward what some feel is sacred in Marx’s legacy. The interview takes a dive into complex theory, which we won’t even attempt to summarize here.Keen says Marx’s philosophical thinking ultimately transcended his own labor theory of value which asserts that all surplus value derives solely from labor. In the Grundrisse, he acknowledges the role of machinery in the production process showing that, with its input into production, machinery can be a source of surplus value...2021-05-2254 min
Macro N CheeseEp 120 - Chain Reactions with Mike FigueredoMike Figueredo and Steve Grumbine have a lot in common. Both are on a journey toward radicalization. Both recognize the importance of MMT in this process. Steve was recently Mike’s guest on The Humanist Report in an episode that was part MMT primer and part discussion of their mutual anti-capitalist awakening. This week, Mike comes to us.When we activists and non-economists first learn MMT, we experience a chain reaction as one shibboleth after another is toppled. The insights strike us as both profound and profoundly obvious. Of course it can also be both exciting and de...2021-05-1559 min
Macro N CheeseEp 114 - When the Whistle Blows with Richard BowenSteve Grumbine welcomes the uncompromising and incorruptible Richard Bowen to the studio to discuss the intricate web of deception and fraud more commonly known as our private banking system. Having been at Citigroup during the mortgage crisis, he had an insider’s eye view of the stranglehold the large banks have on our country. The financial services industry is one of the largest contributors to political campaigns and there’s a revolving door between the regulatory agencies and the institutions they’re supposed to be regulating. He can only conclude that the banking lobby controls the government.In ear...2021-04-031h 07
Macro N CheeseEp 111 - Cancel This Podcast with Dan KovalikThis week Steve talks with Dan Kovalik, a labor and human rights lawyer, who recently wrote a book aptly titled Cancel This Book. The episode is more conversation than interview; Dan and Steve both have a lot to say about cancel culture.Dan tells the story of Molly Rush, an 85-year-old peace activist who once served time in jail for participating in a protest at a nuclear bombsite with the Berrigan brothers. Molly went on to help found the Thomas Merton Center in Pittsburgh, one of the oldest peace and justice centers in America. During the BLM...2021-03-1356 min
Macro N CheeseFocus on the Family with June CarboneRecently our friend Bill Black introduced us to June Carbone. He suggested she could tell us how the job guarantee fits into cutting edge research on the family. June holds the Robina Chair in Law, Science and Technology at the University of Minnesota Law School and writes about the intersection of family, the economy, and politics. In this episode, June takes Steve through the evolution of the American family as it transitioned to meet the economic needs of modern society. She says what excites her is not so much what things are, but why they change. When the U...2021-01-231h 08
Macro N CheeseEp 103 - Anatomy of a Job Guarantee with Fadhel KaboubWhat can we say about the job guarantee that hasn’t already been said? Quite a bit, actually, as you’ll see in this and upcoming episodes.This week Fadhel Kaboub is talking to a mellower Steve, fresh from the hospital and still on the mend from Covid19. Fadhel begins with the reality that capitalism is a brutal system that constantly leaves people behind. It’s driven by technological change, and as this develops, we require some workers with new skill sets, while others are rendered virtually obsolete. We don’t have an existing system bringing them into the...2021-01-1659 min
Macro N CheeseThe Global Scourge of Neoliberalism with Patricia PinoSteve Grumbine has been in the hospital with Covid-19 complicated by pneumonia. We’re encouraged by his progress and expect to have him back in the saddle soon. Since he was unable to record a new interview this week, we’re reviving a 2017 conversation he had with Patricia Pino from the UK. Our listeners know her as co-host of the MMT Podcast, but this was recorded several months before that project was launched. It’s amusing to revisit the past, comparing ourselves then and now. In 2017 Steve was still very much into a heavy metal, confrontational style. He was cons...2021-01-0947 min